assuming the Q will fold in a 3way pot with propokertools i have something like 25% equity

is this a call without any reads just by equity or not? im in last place but how do we treat those pot odds?

Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit Razz $0.25 Ante - 5 players - View hand 1805054
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.625 SB)
Seat 3: xx xx 5 ____Seat 3 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5 ____Seat 4 calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8 ____Seat 5 brings in for $1____Seat 5 calls
Seat 6: xx xx A ____Seat 6 folds
Hero: 6 3 7 ___Hero completes

4th Street: (4.625 SB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 5 8 ____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Q ____Seat 4 calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8 4 ____Seat 5 bets
Hero: 6 3 7 9 ___Hero calls

Don't play razz much but calling here has to be standard.

It's a faster-than-lightning fold if it gets jammed behind you. If the players are at all competent, it's a fold right now because it'll get jammed a lot (and even if it doesn't, Seat 5 still has a much better hand).

So, if you just joined the table because of its high VPIP, it might be a call. Otherwise not.

call

I'd play this out read based ... my bias would be to peel, but if seats 3 and 5 are both aggro (based on 3rd, I'd assume they are not) and hero will often find himself 3bet on 4th, I can find a fold as lots of hero's outs are dead. Worth noting is that an seat 3 catching an 8 doesn't do much for his range (often pairs him).

Edit: wrote above before seeing that OP showed seat 3's fold on 4th. Btw, seat 4's peel seems pretty fishy and knowing you've got a calling station behind improves your pot odds.

if seat 4 has 3 wheel cards is the peel wrong there with 8's and 9s showing closing action?

A few more thoughts ...

In these marginal spots OOP, it's really helpful to know your opponents' tendencies and ranges. If seats 3 and 4 are often flatting 3rd with 9s or worse in their hands and are unlikely to raise 4th, you probably have enough equity to continue imo, especially if seat 5's range is wider than just a draw to smooth 8.

And some thoughts on dead cards ...

If seats 3 and 4 are nitty, however, it's a trickier spot as more of your outs should be dead. On 4th you know that at least 6 of your 20 outs to make an 8 or better are dead and statistically villains' hole cards should hold ~4 more of your outs on avg if seats 3/4 flat 3rd w no cards higher than an 8.

So with 3 cards to come you need to catch a 10 outer to make a 9 (remember, villains can brick and 9 will sometimes be good at SD). After making a 9 hero will have 7 outs on average to make an 8 and 6 outs to make a 7 (assuming the 10 outer wasn't an 8). Note that if hero improves twice, he's actually a ~3:1 favorite to make a 7 (assuming there are 1.5 8s left in the deck).

Yes.

Having wheel cards are actually slightly worse for seat 4 than having an 8 given dead cards. Say seat 4 has 23 in the hole, his maximum outs are (with the benefit of knowing hero's hole cards): 3 As, 3 4s, 3 6s, 3 7s and 2 8s. Of these 14 outs, 2 or 3 are likely in the hands of seat 3 and 5. Just to make an 8, on avg he needs to catch 1 of 11.5 outs AND then catch one of 8.5 remaining outs. The odds of him doing so are 10-15% and even when he catches good he will still sometimes lose.

I fold on 3rd with too many dead cards and a hand that isn't that great to begin with.

I lol'd

Oops. lol I haven't played razz in a while.

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: A

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
673	40.15%	240,423	929
**5	22.37%	133,821	792
**5	22.15%	132,473	803
**8	15.34%	91,731	581

umm, no AINEC. He may have a better chance of making an 8 low by the river with an 8 ith, but there's no qualifier in razz.

so is it a peel for seat5 with 3 wheel cards according to you?

it's a better peel for him than it is for you

Hrm ... Wrt seat 4's hand my intuition is that with so many low cards obviously dead, a rougher draw more live cards would be slightly ahead a smooth draw w fewer live cards but now that I've thought about it some I can see that I was probably wrong as there is only a difference of 1 live card.

I'm still not convinced we'd rather have seat 4s hand over hero's hand though ...
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