whysoserious? nvm, just razz humor

I like it Clayton. Was his reaction happy, mad, or bewildered?

Just realized the thread title is wrong, it's $2500 buyin, lest anyone think I'm playing smallstakes razz. O_O

Greg is always happy, so getting a live tell would be impossible.

there was another hand that was posted on wsop updates where greg
complete/3bet 825 ..idk the table dynamics/positions and the dead cards but that doesnt seem straightforward in a tourney..maybe thats just how he plays 3rd street .
you said he was playing on the loose side so folding is right after c/r him (hes aware of his image and wont be 3bet bluffing there)but might spazz out to a river lead so you have to call a perfect 7 ..still think c/c is best though

only read up to this point but aanted to say i did this to samenole friday night lol. not sure whats fishy abiut it considering i wasnt leading in that spot

The dead cards pretty much make this hand since the way it played out to seventh is so standard. Because you bet fifth and presumably didn't tank much before calling sixth, he can assume you have at least an eight something like 90% and will c/f only if you miss the other 10%. Bluffing on seventh in his spot in a live game vs. a competent player is somewhere between somewhat and very bad. Therefore, if you check he's checking back his eights and worse, rarely to never bluffing, and betting his sevens (I disagree that he checks back 765; it's thin but definitely a bet here with any seven), except you know where two of the sevens are and there are only a few combos of {sevens plus wheel card divided by the discount for the times he calls sevens on third} that he can have. A 765 will also be folding to a CR if it does bet unless your image is a lot more spazzy than it probably is.

So a CR is, at the very least, not good. We're never c/f'ing with a concealed five card hand vs. any reasonable range so that's out. Most people will just c/c by default, but again, he's gonna bet all his nutty hands and have a tiny bluff % so this might actually be a losing play where you're hoping to pick off the handful of worse value hands.

That leaves b/f (I'll just say that vs. most opponents, we should not b/c here and b/3b is hilarious but suicidal). When we bet, we get raised by nut hands and he folds his queens and worse. But because of the dead cards, there's a very good chance he's single paired on sixth. Against all of those Q65 hands, you're better off betting because of what happens when he improves to something mediocre but better than a jack on the river; people don't bet their rivered nines, but against weird river lines they can and do talk themselves into calls.

That this is a tournament doesn't really factor into this hand anywhere, including on third, because this is one of those spots it's better to call than raise regardless of chip denomination.

Missed this:

If you hit 64 you b/3b and probably call a 4 bet but I honestly wouldn't mind folding that much lol.

e: actually, in retrospect, it's definitely a 3b/fold to 4b spot since nobody 4 bets their board in this game

Adanthar thread MVP as usual

Re: dark check
Because when a c/r gets value b/3b gets more, if you're considering c/r/f then b/c costs the same and earns more, and giving an opponent who won't barrel an opportunity to take a free showdown when we have the best hand is bad.

I've long been wanting someone who does it to explain why dark checking is ever preferred over looking at your cards before acting in non-draw games. Feel free to take this opportunity.

If Raymer is never betting an 8, then is hero folding 7th u/i? If so, then why wouldn't Raymer start bluffing? I'm fine with betting, but this hand is important for reads/metagame since it's Raymer it seems like that line either gives Raymer too much credit or not enough.

Checking dark is stupid.

Also you don't induce bluffs by obviously not knowing how strong your final hand is.

what was your stack size? what was raymer's?

one seven being dead turns this spot into an easy c-c, especially in a field like this one..

Hero probably 'should' c/f an unimproved 8 in a vacuum, but the conventional play is to call and it's tough to get anyone to fold anything in limit (I mean, I'm saying hero almost always has an 8 and in the same breath saying he should bet the river because tens talk themselves into calls - this is completely standard!), so even when he checks a bluff into an unknown non-superstar 20-something's usually going to be wishful thinking.

Re: checking dark: studaments are probably the game it's best in since there's a very well defined place for it, namely ICM spots where you've got an obvious 4 carder with one card left and are short/would rather not play the bluffcatch game even at the cost of passing up .1 Sklansky BB or whatever from guessing right more often. This is definitely not anywhere near that area, though.

Whoa whoa whoa

re: my check dark...

samenole check raised me on 5th with 345 board and he gained position on 6th and i c/c'd and it was obv his hand was strong so there's never really a chance of him checking back 7th so i dont think checking dark matters very much. Not really comparable to this spot

There's a lot of good meat to chew on in this thread, but this is the 8-month dry aged porterhouse of the bunch. Not only should your focus be looking like a donk to your opponents in level 2 of a tourney like this, but also getting as much info on them as you can. Which is why in this spot, it would take a lot of porcini bearnaise sauce to get me to swallow a line that ends with "fold".