Why must we constantly revisit this tedious Poker Pro v. live poker debate. Same old issues, same old arguments, and no one's budging from their positions.

Keep this in mind: Caesars is having huge problems with corporate debt and diminishing profit expectations. It has been speculated that the company might have to sell some of its holdings -- including the WSOP franchise -- to ease its debt burden.

Given this bigger picture, does any reasonable person think Harrahs is going to abandon its more cost-effective, less-labor-intensive Poker Pro system in favor of a more costly live-dealer system? I don't think so. As promised, there will be some live poker "in the coming year," but nothing close to what the hard-core, live-poker die-hards keep clamoring for.

So why not cool our jets and move on?

First, I was mainly reporting what "informed sources" have said on this subject, that they will start out with live dealers only on some of higher stake games. Whether or not live dealers remain limited to that in the long term, I don't think anyone knows, maybe not even Harrah's.

The reason it makes sense to start out with live dealers only on higher stakes games IMO is that it is not easy to instantly ramp up the staffing for a poker room with 100% live dealers. Cherokee NC is somewhat isolated and there are no other live dealer poker rooms near by from which a base of experienced dealers can be found. They also have to hire brushes, cashiers, maintenance people for the new tables/shufflers, security people to empty the rake boxes, managers who have previous live dealer experience, etc.

I don't know what kind of live tables they would get, but the ones with automatic card shufflers and electronic systems to keep track of players (and reward points for hours of play), etc, and to show table status, waiting list, etc, is not cheap and not a trivial task to install, maintain, and integrate with the current Harrah's Cherokee systems.

Also, we don't know what existing contracts exist with PokerTek (makers of PokerPro tables) and when they expire if there are any existing contracts.

What high stakes games are the live dealers going to deal?
I've been there dozens of times and never seen anything higher than 2/5 running and that is not even running that often.

1/2 PLO runs like once or twice a week right?

I agree with this

At 1st I HATED , HATEDDDDDDD playing at these "fake" tables.
Something about not having chips in my hand and flying cards into the muck killed me. I mean I played in Vegas for a year so even grinding online was yucky to me.

But seriously , getting in so many hands an hour and no tips eating into your profit margin is kind of nice. You can't act out of turn , you can't expose cards , dealers can't burn and turn too soon , there's no language barrier for the most part. The screen lights up and you press your button. It's universal.

If the room turned into 100% live dealers I wouldn't complain at all , but until then .... it's not that bad


The only real downfall is all the idiots who think it's rigged since it's on a computer , who 100% are losing players/fish/the donations , won't play or at least won't rebuy or play for long

I said "higher" not high. In other words, anything higher than 1/2 NLHE would be what they start with live dealers for. I did not mean to suggest that 2/5 is high stakes, although at Cherokee the buy-in maximums are much higher than at some other casinos I been to. For example, 1/2 NLHE at Cherokee plays like 2/5 at Seminole Hard Rocks in FL, and 2/5 at Cherokee plays like 5/10 at HR's (due to maximum buy-ins).

I agree.

This weekend I noticed a few different players that got some chips from downstairs so they could shuffle them at the poker table. I guess being able to play with the chips makes them feel better. Maybe if it catches on, more people will be happier with the PokerPro tables.

I went to the PokerTek website about a month ago and read about the certification process (done by an independent company) and that the PokerPro machines are indeed random, and that they have been approved by Nevada Gaming Commission, etc as random.

If Harrah's Cherokee or PokerTek had a any brains, they would have a bunch of brochures in the Cherokee poker room explaining the PokerPro independent certification process. Also, they should open up somewhat about the how the decks are initially built, cut, cards burned, etc inside the computer. They can do this without sacrificing security and without giving away trade secrets. This is PokerTek's only hope of staying in business.

PokerTek (PTEK) is publicly traded and I have read their financial statements and other SEC fillings, and long term prospects are not good. At one time shares of PTEK were about $40 per share, but now are at $0.72. If they don't get their stock price over $1.00 they may be de-listed from NASDAQ (on July 11, 2012 PokerTek received a warning letter from NASDAQ, and have a 180 day grace period).

Most PokerPro tables are not casino owned and are operated and maintained by PokerTek in some sort of lease or operating agreement.

1) Staff the poker room cashier on weekend/holiday nights. (seriously, this isn't a huge cost)
2) Everything else

Good Point. We've talked about providing the information below to players but wondered if we'd just feed the conspiracy debate. We'll take another look at this.

FYI... here is the info


PokerPro™ uses a normal 52 card deck that is automatically shuffled before each hand by a GLI-certified Random Number Generator and then fixed. We then deal as expected including actually burning cards.

GLI (Gaming Labs International) is the worldwide leader in gaming equipment testing and certification for regulated casinos. You can find more information about GLI here. www.gaminglabs.com. Virtually every piece if gaming equipment in casinos in the U.S. and most around the world requires GLI Certification. Just this year, Nevada Gaming Control Board finally outsourced their testing and certification process to GLI.

In addition to the RNG, all PokerPro hardware and software is GLI Certified.

Hope this helps

PTLou

I certainly hope PokerTek does not go out of business. The e-tables are preferable to me most of the time, although I occasionally do prefer to play in a live-dealt game. Overall, though, I agree with the assessment that the e-tables are more profitable. Anything that can be done to build/restore confidence in the validity of the e-tables' randomization system is a good thing, IMO, because I like to have the option to go to a place with e-tables and have players there who aren't scared to play on them. I don't want to see them disappear.

I don't know exactly how PokerPro builds the shuffled deck, but if they built the deck before the computer knew which table it was for, or before it knew how many players at the table on a particular hand, that would be good to publicize, since it would make it impossible to know what each player would end up with on the river.

I heard a lot of people claiming this past weekend that PokerPro deals big hands (bigger than random) in order to get pot size bigger, to increase the rake for the casino. This seems to be the general consensus, even among regular customers, so I don't think explaining how it works can make the conspiracy theories any worse than they are now.

That is not the general consensus. Just because a very vocal few make lots of noise doesn't mean that most of the regs think that way. I play at Cherokee often and the machines are no different than real cards. Some people just need an excuse. The machines are an easy target.

The set up hand garbage is the same nonsense that has been spewed for years about internet poker. If you believe that then I guess it makes sense to think that Harrah's is risking their NC gaming license to rake an extra few bucks an hour on a Poker Pro table.

Much love and 100% agreement with this post.

I do believe, however, that the perception of more big hands is correct only because Poker Pro deals so many more total hands per hour. Hence there are more big hands as well as more unplayable hands.

I am just telling you what a lot of other people are saying at tables I played at this last weekend. Obviously it is because of the larger number of hands per hour, and the fact that IMO more people see the flop at Harrah's than at other casino's I have played at (because of smaller or no raising before the flop). But even when I point these things out to people, they usually still think it is rigged to deal big hands to increase the rake.

And yes, I did point out that Caesars Entertainment is a large publicly traded company and that they would not risk their gaming license on non-random hands, but some people think it is legal to have non-random hands so long as no one knows which players will benefit. When dealing (no pun intended) with rumors like this, silence is not the right strategy. The false rumors must be vigorously and repeatedly attacked and discredited.

Also, I have seen the staff running the poker room having to explain how it works to new customers who came to the poker room and did not know anything about the PokerPro tables or how they worked. A brochure would be useful to let them read about it (with a FAQ section).

what days and times do they have tournaments ? are there evening tournaments through the week?

http://www.harrahscherokee.com/Event...me=Tournaments

You always hear losing players make absurd comments. When people talk like this, one begins to wonder if these guys have ever played Hold 'Em before. Hold 'Em is an action game. Intentionally; nature of the beast, and all that. The large number of hands doesn't hurt either.

There are a lot of gimps, limps, and limped pots at Cherokee, no doubt about it. Everybody wants to see a cheap flop with 2,7 os.

If the game is rigged in any way, why would you play? Oh, yeah, "it's the only game in town."

They claim that it is rigged to have big showdown hands to increase the pot size, and increase the rake. They don't claim that anyone knows who will get the winning hand, so that is why they continue to play (and it is the only game in town).

I don't see any harm, and see a lot of good, that would occur if it certification process that PokerPro has gone through to ensure random hands was explained to everyone. It is explained on their website, so why not explain it to people in the poker room with a brochure? I just don't see any downside of doing it.

Doesn't the rake cap at $5 on a $50 pot? There are numerous $50+ pots at a normal $1/$2 table. In fact I would bet the majority of pots in a $1/$2 game are over$50. I don't see much advantage if any to rigging the game for more rake when the normal course of play would generate maximum rake anyway. Besides really huge pots often take longer to complete as players often take a little more time deciding what to do which slows downs the hands per hour of the table. This would hurt the rake overall.

What's interesting to me is how dissociated people are with this concept of riggedness in normal live games. For instance, at my local card room the other week, we saw 3 big full houses, two sets of quads and a straight flush to the J all in the span of about 1 hour on the same table. Not once did anyone suggest the game was rigged yet I would be willing to bet that if that happened at Cherokee several people would be talking about the rigged computer hands. It's like people never consider getting cheated in a live game although it certainly happens.

Bottom line: you have far less chance of the PT tables being rigged than you do in a normal home game. Casinos would be risking millions of dollars for relative peanuts in terms of the rake at the PT tables. They would be really stupid to try it.

Though I agree with your post in general, I hate the bolded part. Never underestimate a thief's audacity/stupidity.

So just play every hand to the river, and win? Got it. I will change my strategy immediately.

The casino wins max when the pot gets to $50. Rigtards beware, you is being cheated.

I guess it is good that no one "knows who will get the winning hand." It is sort of like real poker, isn't it.

I have played in rigged games--but only until I found it out. If the game is rigged in any way, why would you play?

If the poker games at Cherokee are rigged, "my name is not tennesseered. You may call me Meyer."

Be careful using the Harrahs Cherokee Event Calendar for poker tournaments, some of the tournaments (weekend tournaments) don't show up under the poker room listing, they show up under the Casino Floor section. And I believe the 2 wednesday tournaments are missing from the Calendar as well. If you choose all Events and All Venues, I believe you will see all the poker tournaments except for the Wednesday tournaments (2 a.m. holdem & 7 p.m. omaha tournaments).

On the Random Shuffle issue, I agree that some type of educational campaign needs to be pushed, hard. Nearly every table I've sat at had at least one or two vocal "It's Rigged" evangelists. They do continue to come and play but all the first-timers sitting at the table hear all that and have to wonder if 'any' of it is true; they have to wonder. With no opposing information, except for opinions it's possible they may not try it again, ever.

A poster on the wall, or a brochure, explaining all the certifications, how the decks are managed, how the burn cards work, etc. could only help.

With the lure of 'live cards' downstairs, the new poker room being upstairs out of the casino traffic patterns and ceasing all poker room announcements on the public address system, something good or positive for the poker room would be nice for a change.

Why did they cease the poker room announcements?

You are using logic, which is not characteristic of the people who are complaining or spreading false rumors about the PokerPro tables not being random.

All I am saying is that the certification process that PokerPro tables has already gone through to ensure random deals should be publicized. Certainly, Caesers wanted to see the that the machines were certified as random, and the various gaming commissions wanted to see that they were certified as random, so why not let everyone see that they are certified?

The current state of affairs is that live dealers are coming to Cherokee. Although they will supposedly be for 2/5 and above initially, there is no guarantee PokerPro will remain at Cherokee long term, and PokerTek as a company needs all the help they can get in good publicity just to remain in business.

Some guy at the Craps table complained about it. I heard this from a player so take it with a grain of salt.

I would suspect they may have had numerous complaints about the poker room announcements downstairs. On Saturday nights for example when the room gets busier the announcements to call players on the waiting list were frequent, perhaps every minute or two and sometimes they'd read out the list of ten names when starting a new table so it took a while. On some days the announcements were ear-splitting loud downstairs. Other days the volume was reasonable.

I'm sure it was annoying to some non-poker-playing customers. Also some floor person voices were pleasant and soothing, others were like fingernails scratching across a blackboard.

Now they issue a pager to the wait listees and the gaming floor customers never hear one syllable regarding the poker room. It's a shame it had to be all or nothing.