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was this too nityy? was this too nityy?

03-26-2017 , 10:53 PM
    WPN, $10 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    Hero (SB): 1,415 (47.2 bb)
    BB: 1,620 (54 bb)
    UTG+2: 1,590 (53 bb)
    MP1: 1,370 (45.7 bb)
    MP2: 1,525 (50.8 bb)
    MP3: 2,845 (94.8 bb)
    CO: 1,695 (56.5 bb)
    BTN: 1,440 (48 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with J K
    4 folds, CO raises to 90, BTN folds, Hero calls 75, BB folds

    Flop: (210) K 6 4 (2 players)
    Hero checks, CO bets 105, Hero raises to 240, CO calls 135

    Turn: (690) K (2 players)
    Hero checks, CO checks

    River: (690) 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets 590, CO raises to 1,365 and is all-in, Hero calls 495 and is all-in

    Spoiler:
    Results: 2,860 pot
    Final Board: K 6 4 K 8
    Hero showed J K and lost (-1,415 net)
    CO showed A T and won 2,860 (1,445 net)



    I checked on the turn to have him bet (because he wasthe aggressor) but it failed and by the river he got his nut flush. Should I have continued to bet on the turn and why should I bet it? For value? I can take the loss but shot myself in the foot trying to be sneaky.


    Last edited by HZY91; 03-26-2017 at 11:04 PM.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 03:03 AM
    He's not the aggressor after you raise him and he calls.

    Better question is, why did you raise the flop? That's where the trouble starts. As played I'd probably check turn.

    You could also fold this pre from the SB.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 04:06 AM
    fold pre, x/call flop, x turn, lead smaller otr.
    fold to a raise otr,you are never good there. 11bb is still a stack to play with..
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 07:14 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flamekiddo25
    fold pre, x/call flop, x turn, lead smaller otr.
    fold to a raise otr,you are never good there. 11bb is still a stack to play with..
    pretty much this. allthough you could 3bet pre. you got good blockers, but that depends on how you construct your preflop 3bet ranges.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 09:36 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    He's not the aggressor after you raise him and he calls.

    Better question is, why did you raise the flop? That's where the trouble starts. As played I'd probably check turn.

    You could also fold this pre from the SB.
    I thought since he raised pre he was the aggressor?

    I raised the flop for value and to protect my hands against draws.

    And honestky I couldnt see myself folding this hand pre when its just me and the CO and its still early in the SNG. Plus I think its a hand that can connect well with flops and does have some value.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 09:38 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flamekiddo25
    fold pre, x/call flop, x turn, lead smaller otr.
    fold to a raise otr,you are never good there. 11bb is still a stack to play with..
    I agree man. I just was too aggressive and once he re-raised me all in I didnt think and knew I was going to have a small stack. BUT!! didnt think that I still had time to be patient and wait for better spots to get my money in.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-27-2017 , 09:40 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Leia Amidala
    pretty much this. allthough you could 3bet pre. you got good blockers, but that depends on how you construct your preflop 3bet ranges.
    I could of possibly 3 bet but I will be OOP and JK is a hand that seems to get tricky because the raiser could have a K or J with a better kicker. I just think calling is a better decision.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    03-28-2017 , 01:45 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HZY91
    I thought since he raised pre he was the aggressor?

    I raised the flop for value and to protect my hands against draws.

    And honestky I couldnt see myself folding this hand pre when its just me and the CO and its still early in the SNG. Plus I think its a hand that can connect well with flops and does have some value.
    With KJo it's close between 3B-bluff, call and fold. Some people don't really call at all from the SB, which would make it a choice between bluffing or folding this. Personally, I usually bluff with suited stuff though rather than this type of double-blocker, but 3-bet bluffing hands are it's a lot about personal choice.

    The point of who the aggressor (last bettor or raiser) is, is that person has an uncapped range plus bluffs. The person who called is capped with fewer bluffs. That applies to any street - not just preflop.

    It usually makes sense to check to the aggressor because the player with the middle range wants to play against the bluffs of the polarised range, not just the hands that beat it.

    I think the thing about the flop raise is you fold out too many hands you beat. A couple of streets later and his calling range is only hands that beat you. You want to keep his range as wide as possible here.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-06-2017 , 08:14 PM
    Why are we not betting the turn here? Can anyone explain why you would check trips here instead of betting like 2/3 pot to protect your hand from his FD.
    Plus, I think with the blinds being this low 3B preflop is not needed. Call is fine. Unless his steal % is skyrocking and you got a decent sample on villian doing so.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-16-2017 , 05:49 PM
    This is an interesting hand to me, especially after the flop. I hope more people can share their opinions.

    I agree about folding preflop, mainly because OOP.

    On the flop I have a doubt, what about betting here a little higher than 1/2 pot, let's say 140 in this case? If we are reraised here, we probably should fold, there could be stronger hands like AA, AK or sets, even KQ or K6s. This bet serves to protect our hand against flush draws. A 140 bet is 29% in pot odds to call, if villain knows about pot odds he must fold (he only has 12 outs = approx. 24% odds), if he is a calling station, he might call everything we throw at him until he sees the river. I am not totally convinced about check/call here, mainly because villain can perceive us as weak and make an overbet bluff, something like a 2 times pot bet. What would you do here? I would not take the risk. Also agree that there was no need to check raise the flop, a call was ok.

    Now on the turn, if he has a flush draw, a half pot bet is enough to make him fold given the pot odds (if he is not a calling station), the alternative is just checking the turn (if we think that he has AK/KQ).

    Finally c/f the river is the safest (unless the price to pay is too low, I don't like being bluffed ).

    I guess our decision should be based not only on the cards we see and/or the position on the table, but also on the type of player we are facing (LAG, TAG, calling station, etc.) If he is a nit or a TAG, we should fold preflop. If he is a LAG or a CS, we might consider betting on the flop to avoid bluffs/draws. Of course is my opinion, I'd like to know yours, especially when reraised big after we check the flop in this type of hands.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-17-2017 , 03:21 AM
    @cpf27

    Villain should not fold a flush draw given those odds (because he also has implied odds) - he may also raise the draw and then you say you would end up folding to the draw. That's why making bets and raises " to see where you are at" only works if you can trust your opponent to give you honest information (and if you can trust them then you can also just check to see where you are at)

    About check/calling - not sure if you mean villain would c-bet for 2x, or if he would 2x turn after we check-call flop and check to him again on the turn. Checking to the raiser on the flop is standard so we are not capped before he c-bets. As for the turn - It's true we are capped but villains almost never 2x here, if it happens then the answer is we would more or less call the top third of our range that we get there with, which would include a hand like this with high relative strength and a good blocker. to any of his hands including a K.
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-17-2017 , 10:01 AM
    Thanks for your answer LektorAJ. I will review the imply odds concept again.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    @cpf27
    About check/calling - not sure if you mean villain would c-bet for 2x
    Yes, I meant a c-bet of 2 times the pot on the flop. My main concern about checking in this case, is moves like that by aggro players because they perceive checking the flop as a weak move. They might be bluffing or maybe not, would calling be worth the risk?
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-17-2017 , 10:09 AM
    I think that call pre, x/c flop and lead turn is a fine and profitable line. The turn lead on a K is important cuz agressor will check back this card very often realizing equity for free and keeping the pot smaller than we want with trip kings. For example if he had aces we wold have only a tiny value bet on river from him, while we can go for 3 streets by leading turn. On the other side raising flop allows villain to play near perfectly continuing with good fd, combo draws and stronger​ pairs and folding his trash like JQo. We could go for a flop raise when there's the chance of either the villain fold better hands or call with worse. As played you should always bet this turn because he is almost never betting turn either as a bluff or for value after a flop x/r from you.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
    was this too nityy? Quote
    04-17-2017 , 10:43 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cpf27
    Thanks for your answer LektorAJ. I will review the imply odds concept again.



    Yes, I meant a c-bet of 2 times the pot on the flop. My main concern about checking in this case, is moves like that by aggro players because they perceive checking the flop as a weak move. They might be bluffing or maybe not, would calling be worth the risk?
    Obviously it depends how experienced they are but most players check to the pre-flop raiser on the flop with every single hand because most players c-bet with a high frequency - so villains don't read anything into the flop check that they haven't already read from the only-call pre-flop.

    If you think people are bluffing a lot then be happy to call 2 or 3 streets with this type of hand - certainly happier than you would be to play against his range that calls aggression from you.
    was this too nityy? Quote

          
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