so you're up around 300 buy ins?

Move up.

obviously move up

Hey! Title says it all really. I just started playing 180 man SNGs and want to know how many tournaments I need before I can make any meaningful sample analysis.


Also how many buy ins do u suggest I use for a bankroll? is 50 good or is the variance so high I might even need 100?

I would suggest playing cheap 180s until you a pretty sure of your game.
It's hard to say what a meaningful sample is but if you treated the results as a coming from a binomial distribution (the usual bell curve) after 5000 with a 10% roi your 90% confidence spread is still 10% +/- 12%.

The variance of 180s is very high so if you have a true 10% roi at them it is still a bit of a gamble in the short term - after 5000 there is about a 10% chance of losing money but on the other hand there is also a 10% chance of being up 1000 BI's. The Bell curve is very squashed compared to 9 seaters spikier one.
For $0.95 + $0.05 games the variance per game for a 10% roi is about 28.0, the variance of 9's is just 2.3.
This is one reason why some people reckon there is lot's more money in 180's, maybe there is, but there will be many people after having played 5000 games at 10% roi that are 750 BI up thinking it is easy compared to 9's. Still with a 10% roi but playing 9 seat games there won't be any as high as 750BI (ok actually ~1% compared to nearly 20% in 180's).
The bell curve will be centered on the same mean point (10%) but the 180's is wide with lots of chance to fall far to either side the 9's much much tighter so a smaller range.
(You need approx 10x the number of games to get the same confidence in 180's compared to STTs)

As for BRM it depends on your expected roi and risk style, I think 50 is ridiculously small and often won't last long, 100 is still small but it does depend on your expectation, 150 to 200 seems comfortable to me.

use the search function

I think you need +5K games to say something about you're ROI...
Between 30% and 40% is a decent ROI for $2.50 180 around 25% for $8 and 15% for 15$.

BRM 250BI for $2.50 and more for higher stakes imo.

All data is welcome but 5000 games will be about the same level predictor as a batch of 500 STT games, i.e. not too accurate.
The 30% + roi's are also more than decent, 5 to 10k worth of them gets you well onto the first page of tracking sites and most of these top players are having a good run - it's very easy to over estimate the achievable roi's.

I'll fill in a little on this because it now seems to me I was a bit vague with accuracy, I'll give a concrete example.
In the Normal distribution (I also typo'd and used 'binomial' in an earlier post) it is well known that approx 68% results will fall within +/- one sd of the mean.
I'll calculate some values for a mediocre player 68% confidence range that has an roi of 0.0% in both STT's and 180 games.
So for games of BI $0.95 + $0.05 :
the variance for 1 game of 9s, at 0% roi = 2.25
the variance for 1 game of 180s, at 0% roi = 25.6

the variance for 1k games of 9s, at 0% roi = 1000 * 2.25 = 2250
the variance for 1k games of 180s, at 0% roi = 1000 * 25.6 = 25600

the stdev for 1k games of 9s, at 0% roi = Sqrt(2250) = 47.4
the stdev for 1k games of 180s, at 0% roi = Sqrt(25600) = 160

So after playing 1k games the 9s player is 0.0 +/- 47.6 BI's (i.e. +/- 1sd) whereas the 180s player is 0.0 +/- 160 BI's, both sets cost 1000 BI's = $1000.
and in roi% terms
the 9s player is +/- 47.6 * 100 / 1000 = +/- 4.7%
the 180s player is +/- 160 * 100 / 1000 = +/- 16%

So after 1k games we could be 68% certain the 9s players' roi is found in the range 0.0 +/- 4.7%, but we only 'know' the 180s player roi to +/- 16%.

How many games before we know the 180 roi at 4.7% accuracy?
Sqrt(n *25.6 ) * 100/n = 4.7
or n = 11589
With a 0.0 roi playing 180s after 11.6k you will know your roi as 0.0% +/- 4.7% with a 68% confidence, or 11.5 times as many games as for the STT case.

So to know roughly, using the Normal model, how many more games you need to predict roi to about the same percentage in either STTs or 180s it is reasonable to use a factor of 10x when comparing them.

Things to note are the Normal model is a good model of tourny results, but games change and tilt happens etc. and I might have screwed all this up (a good chance of this ) I was surprised how large a factor it seems.

thanx for the reply basemetal very interesting stuff to know as a 180ers grinder!

Hello my friends, currrently which ROI it is considered good in SNG $4.50 180P?

40%

Hello my friends, currrently which ROI it is considered good in SNG $4.50 180P?

How many are necessary for play sng $4.50 180P and mtt BI until %5.50?

anything over 20% should be considered good, however as much as 40% is pretty common.

I would advise you to play with no less than 200BI for these stakes

I have a 18% roi in 2.50 180 mans. I play a ton of games 30-40 at a time would I be able to beat 8 180s do you think?

tbh most people dont make that much in $8s due to how saturated they are. 30/40 tabling $2s with 18% roi would mean you are prob +EV in them but you wont be making much. maybe if you play less at a time it would be more but they are most definately they most difficult variant of the 180s for sure

Hey all, I also have a question regarding BRM.
I deposited 10 dollars into pokerstars 2 months ago and started grinding MTTs and MTTSNGs ranging from 2-25c. I usually two table, play without HUD and consider myself an amateur that would like to learn the game and overcome my tilt issues. I had a 135e roll on iPoker that I grinded from 10 free 1 dollar SNG tokens that they used to give which I donated after I suffered a suck out.
Past few days I've been running and playing well, managed to win or come in 2nd place in a bunch of 25c 45man and binked 2nd place in 25c 100 dollars added MTT yesterday: so roll is now 64 dollars (after I sent some money to my friends).
So I think it's time to move up (now I set my MTT block to 60c), but I don't think I am comfortable playing 5 minutes blind level tournies, I'd like to do 10-15 minutes per level tournies and find those 55c 500 man capped to be ideal for now.
Any other suggestions on which tournies I should play? Is my thought process valid here? Please criticize anything you find odd.

Im looking for 180 man SNG training site or videos. Can someone give an advice?

not that much good stuff availeble imo, most of it is outdated. I still like Yugioh's stuff on 2+2! Posting in the MTTSNG forum is also very good learning school.

Hey

bex989




CAP MTT = a good way to reduce large field variance. The structure is fixed and the players are capped so you can really analyze the structure and adjust to it. Now don't get me wrong, there will be massive variance, but less so than a 6000 or 1000 field MTT.

TIME LEVELS - I know what u mean by wanting to play longer levels, it seems more like real poker. But until you get to 10000 stack chips and 1 hour blind levels your not really going to see that much of a difference between 5 and 10 minute levels. Besides, TURBO, HYPER TURBO, ZOOM is the way things are now like it or not. It is what the sites want, as they get more games in and make more money. It is what the regs want for the same reasons. So like it or not learn the turbos and enjoy a regular speed once in a while.

45- 180 mans - If you are doing well at the 45's there is no need to eliminate them from your routine. They are even more variance reduction and you can study the structure and keep regging them and moving up.


glgl

Hey Matsuri, thanks for your answer. I was lucky to take 4th place in one of those 55c MTTs, roll is now 73 dollars, it would be almost 90, but friend asked me to send him some money to his account. Don't wanna sound like a nit, but I thinks it was a large portion of my bankroll, I really didn't know what to say to him and I think he doesn't even plan to pay it back (he's a losing player).
I like what you said about the turbos, but I think that I am not rolled to starting grinding 50c turbos just yet, no? Both bankroll and experience wise. I downloaded a HUD and intend to start 4 tabling 25c 45s, and maybe some 10c turbos for practice. Where can I find some good learning material for turbos? I am a silver member at pokerstrategy, I watched some of their videos and they seem very interesting.
Also, are there seriously 10k starting stack/1 hour level tournaments online?

Hey, I was just wondering, if anyone has experience with this, if there is a huge difference in level of play between 50c tournaments, 1$ and $1.50 tournaments on stars. I've got a 450$ bankroll, 400 of which is from grinding micro cash. The rest is from playing 50c turbos, only about 200 so I don't have a good sample size but I'm pretty sure all it takes to beat these is not open-shoving QTo on the first level. That said, I'm just learning tournaments and really poker in general.

So I think by even conservative bankroll management I am rolled for up to $1.50 tournaments for sure. However, if they are a lot harder than what I'm playing at the moment and there's a good chance I'll be a losing player in them (long term, I get downswings happen) I'll hold off until I feel I've improved.

Can anyone recommend me any good sites with videos on 180 $3.50 rebuys? I had a DeucesCracked membership but was wondering if there was anything more current and better or supplemental.

check out bluefirepoker

i have seen there are some vids of bfizz

is 600 usd enough or the risk is to high & how much I need to play 2.5 without any pressure

pretty sure you can find this pretty much anywhere you actually search for it
like the sticky up top, google, any of the other million threads this has been asked in, ...

since I don't feel like being a complete ass
I thought the minimum was 100x some say 200x or 300x maybe it's more, it's definetly not less than 100x
You're at 240x, so seems pretty safe to me, unless you're not a winning player, then it won't matter how much you start with and since you have to ask this here, I doubt you are (no offense ment)