ive been thinking about adding the 5$ PSKO 90man on stars to my daily grind. Im am studying some of the theory points behind psko. And was wondering what do you guys think of converting the bounty on a players to chips.

The costs are: 2.30 (prize pool) + 2.30 (bounty) + 0.4 (rake).

Now ive stumbled on 3 different ways to convert the bounty to chips.

1)

you get 1500 chips for 2.3$. So the bounty is also worth 1500 chips. even though you only get half of the bounty. the other half is not lost, and you will win it if you win the tournament.

2)

you get 1500 chips for 2.3$. But the bounty is only 750 chips because you
get only half of the bounty. As the other half will be added to your own bounty. Which you only get if you win the tournament. But is otherwise lost.


3) (and this is actually collin moshman saying this)

the bounty is only 25% of your stack. So it would only be 375. This is because he reasons your starting stack has costs you 4.6$. So 1500 chips are 4.6$. The bounty we get is 2.3/2=1.15. => 1 starting bounty = 375 chips.


They all say this isnt the whole story. But its a good staring point. But which of these 3 is the preferred way?

thanks.

Interested in this as well. I usually use the second method as only half of the money goes to the prizepool, so seems weird fir me that you buy 1500 chips for 4.60. Bounty also can't be worth full 1500 cause when other people bust players they get half the bounty, so you'll never win all of the bounty money. Probably the right answer is in between the first and second method.

Option 3

anyone else?

I lean towards option 2 (little bit more, cause we might win our own bounty). The reason why i disagree with option 3, is because we pay 5$ in total, but only half of
that (minus rake) will be put in the prizepool. We get 1500 chips to play for that prizepool. The bounties are worth the other half of the total prizepool. Therefore i think
a bounty is worth a full stack. But in a PSKO we only get half of this bounty..therefor its worth 50% of our full stack, which is 750 chips.

#2

don't take super marginal spots after accounting for the bounty tho .
most money is made by outright winning these games.

#1: It's for KO, not PSKO
#2: in my opinion it is oversimplified.
#3: When Moshman said that? I used to think this way, but Many articles/videos suggest the #2 model.

Issues/limitations of #2:

It suggests you can flip my entire stack every time you can get a bounty: Let's say you are playing $5 90p PSKO blinds 10/20 and you have 1500 chips, a fun player goes all in with exactly 1500 chips from the SB, and you are on BB and you have 50% equity against his range, this model suggests you have 40% KO Pot Odds, so you have to call, but you are actually losing money when you do it...

When you flip and win, you get 1500 chips(wich according to chip EV it's worth $2.30) + $1.15 of bounty, $3.45(not taking into account that a bigger stack might help me to get more bounties in the future and not taking into account that when you win the tournament, you keep your bounty)
When lose, you lost $4.60 from your buy in(Not taking into account the rake)

The model suggests that everytime you call with 50% equity, you win $0.57(10% of the final pot 3750 chips(3k + 750 from the bounty)

The ability to get more bounties with a bigger stack and the increase of the probability of winning the tournament * your final bounty need to worth $1.72($4.60+$0.57-$2.30-$1.15) for the KO pot odds to be true, I don't think it is.

Another issue is if you have a big stack and you are risking to lose the ability to get more bounties in the future:
let's say the same situation as above happens, but now you have 3k chips, and you are facing an open shove of a villain with 3k chips and $4.60 bounty, you also have 40% KO pot odds, but if you fold, the probability of knocking out other players is bigger, if you lose you're done.

*Note that on the situations above, the model #3 suggests a 44% pot odds instead.

@THiagoCorreai

Collin made a video on a site called: nl strategy specific for knockouts. Its a silver video. If you search on knockout you will find it.

Interesting post. I still have difficulty grasping it all. You say when we win the flip we have won $3.45 and when we loose we have lost 5$ (incl rake). That makes sense. So we shouldnt call according to you.
But arent you forgetting our begin stack of 1500 which is also worth 2.3$? When we call and win we are still in the running for getting ITM and get a non bounty prize.

About your last point. Isnt this just another way of saying: lets pass up on small +ev spot to be able to get >+ev spots in the future? If it is, i would say that it isnt a good argument. If a spot is +ev, we should
almost always take it. If we bust we can just start up another sng. If i misunderstood you let me know.

EDIT: i think the reason we shoulnt call with a 50% edge in this spot is because of ICM. and the next 1500 chips arent worth as much as our initial 1500.

@Leia Amidala
I'm not forgetting that our stack also worth $2.30, but the reason we can spend $5 to register for a tournament where we receive $2.30 in chips is because we will be able to find future spots where we can show a positive ROI. If we enter on a marginal spot with our entire stack I think we are giving up on those future spots.
I believe ICM is pretty marginal at the beginning of this tournament and even if #2 is the best way to think and a lot of great players advise it, it has some limitations.
If it was simple as that, ICMIZER and Resources would calculate the EV in KO tournaments this way, but they don't.
I think we have to avoid marginal spots where we would put our entire stack at risk, especially if we have a bigger stack than the average(We would be giving up getting bounties in the future). But how much we should avoid it? I don't know.

So in your mind, the bounty value lies somewhat between #2 and #3?

ICM isnt a big factor early on I agree (its still there ofc). But then i still dont understand why you wouldnt call if you have win odds of 50% and there is overlay. If you load this hand up in HRC. 1500 stacks, 10/20/2 structure. If SB pushes with only K8s. HRC says we have to call with 22 (which is about 50%). And that is without any bounty.

I don't know, maybe 50% equity is the minimum equity for a good call in that situation, 5% Chip EV is usually good to put all your chips in Chip EV situations, but I don't think 45% equity is good enough to call there.

When you have 1500 and you are at the beginning of the tournament, if you maintain your stack it's likely that you will have other opportunities to get bounties.

About HRC: It's not good to put all your chips on break even plays in tournaments.

I believe our minimum equity% to put all of our chips on bounty tournaments will be higher if we cover a lot of players than if we don't cover just a few. Neither #2 or #3 takes into account that. For me, #2 define the odds you have if you are a short stack and you are facing a shove from another short stack player that you have covered.

I'm just sharing what I think, so people can say if they agree or not and why.

Edit: "I believe our minimum equity% to put all of our chips on bounty tournaments will be higher if we cover a lot of players than if we cover just a few."