Hey,

i used to think that with pocket pairs it was ok to call a raise with a small pocket pair when you and the opponent have at least about 8 time the stack size of the raise (because I'll hit a set 12% of the time). Recently i read about calling a raise with small PP according to the 'call 20' rule: you and your opponent must have at least 20 times the raise amount behind. How you think about this rule and does this change when there are multiple opponents in the pot?

Thx

I think most people take 15 as a general min stack for set mining. Its basically because if you follow 8 to1 rule, u are not going to stack your opp. always when you hit ur set, so taking that into acc. 15 is a good number.Multiple opponents has got to take into account your position, if you are closing the action then set mining is good. but if your are in MP then you have to take into account the cooler situation(set over set)+ someone squeezing you out.

How does the no of limpers influence the 1:15 ratio?
I mean...if one guys limps before us and we get 1:15 we can call.
But say if there are four limpers and we get 1:14 we can't call?
The # of limpers does not affect the 1:15 needed ? say 1:14 or 1:10 ?

Of course the number of other players in the hand affects the 15x "rule" because the more players in the hand, the greater the chance you'll stack somebody if you hit your set.

So if there are 2 guys ahead of me I can call with 1:12? Is it acceptable? Sorry for offpost.

It depends on so many factors. Depending on these factors the number needs to be between 5 and 20.

I think the set mining "rule" is useful for beginner players so they don't call raises where they can't possibly win enough chips to justify set mining. Once you move beyond the beginner phase you need to be more nuanced.

To take an extreme example, if you call a raise from a player who will always shove the flop whatever happens, you probably only need 8:1 implied odds since you'll get paid every time you hit your set. Conversely if you're up against a very weak/tight player who won't put a lot of chips in the pot even with AK on an Axx board then you probably need closer to 20 times implied odds. There are just so many combinations and permutations of potential hands that it's not really wise to apply a "rule" to all of these situations, rather understanding the principles of implied odds and knowing how to apply them to individual situations is the key.

yeah but also think about your direct odds and reverse implied odds. sometimes you get 5:1 pre and you only need to avg 3 more bb's post, at that point you need under 2:1 implied vs a lot of guys (he may only need to cbet 70% of the time for set mining to be directly profitable against him).