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Old 03-19-2012, 09:02 AM   #496
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

why blinds to ante ratio is not the same for all levels of 180man?
can we unify this to have the constant ratio?
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:07 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by 2MuchLuckWillKillU View Post
rebuys are raked around 3% if you rebuy/add on once on average + they take longer . Pretty obvious that this would lower pokerstars' revenue significantly for 180s.
Please don't respond with idiotic arguments there are all sorta of 11r 20r even 109r on stars and this company generates billions of revenue u are worried about significant revenue drop from an 11r/180 which more ppl will play??
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:16 AM   #498
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

YES. Because there's 0% chance they introduce them if we propose a straight up 10+1 + rebuy. They have subtely admitted this. Why not make it >0% by raking them high and come to a compromise?

109r/11r mtts are sustainable among a wide platform of mtt formats, this 11R sng would divert traffic or kill 35+$3 rake 180man sngs.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #499
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Lol suggesting like 10+2 rebuys seems redic. Would instantly boycot those, makes no sense to suggest higher rake in 180 rebuys then in mtt rebuys imo.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:05 AM   #500
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

When "register for similar tournament" don't bring the lobby back up infront of tables
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:29 AM   #501
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by 999NoigeL View Post
Lol suggesting like 10+2 rebuys seems redic. Would instantly boycot those, makes no sense to suggest higher rake in 180 rebuys then in mtt rebuys imo.
boycott away.
There does if they are not allowed in otherwise, i'd rather the option
of 10+2+R 180man than a $7R 90man that never runs.
At least I'm offering some kind of compromise; pokerstars are offering none...

To quote simakos at the prospect of a higher rebuy 180

Spoiler:
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:30 PM   #502
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by entim View Post
boycott away.
There does if they are not allowed in otherwise, i'd rather the option
of 10+2+R 180man than a $7R 90man that never runs.
At least I'm offering some kind of compromise; pokerstars are offering none...

To quote simakos at the prospect of a higher rebuy 180

Spoiler:
I completely agree with this. While in theory releasing a game with higher rake is bad, I would much rather have higher rebuys with more rake than not have them. That being said, I think 10+1 w/ rebuys that are also 10+1 would be best. I honestly can't think of much of a reason that rebuys aren't raked in the first place. The fish won't care about the higher rake, and if there are fish in a large buyin rebuy, the regs will come regardless of the extra rake.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:48 PM   #503
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

the stars rep has stated the concern about not having 11r/180s due to liquidity NOT rake, why is everyone jumping to conclusions?
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:43 PM   #504
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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About 180 rebuys, you can take it to MTTSNG thread, but I am of the opinion that 180 rebuys should not proceed and I think Stars has acted correctly. Infact I even think 3r/180s are "on the table." About increased rake, the best thing they can do is to rake the rebuys. But overall it is just a losing proposition no matter how they try to rake it.

Think about why you want a rebuy tournament anyways. Is it because you want to buyin more than the weak players? Rebuy tournaments overall only dry up the games -- overall they increase the action of regs. Unlike true MTTs, rebuys cannot help juice the prizepool, because the # of entrants is fixed -- noone can look at a huge prizepool and then decide they want to get in on it, because the registration is closed. If someone wanted to play a bigger tourney, they would just play a $8/180 instead of $3r/180. If your argument is about increased play, then they should just create a tournament with more play.

Right now, 3r/180s rake 31 cents and let you play a ~$10 abi tournament with a lot of really really weak players. That's just incredible and unprecedented for MTTSNGs/SNGs in general (such a high roi to rake ratio). That's why I honestly think it is on the table for PS.
Thats a quote from AWice. I encourage everybody to share their opinions.

As a direct response, the reason people like rebuy 180s is due to them having a greater possible edge due to a deeper structure as well as less variance. If you've read this thread and that's anywhere near your conclusion, I really question whether you have the players interests in mind at all.

I see you suggested just making a game with a structure for more play, but that seems a lot more complicated than adding higher rebuys. Personally, I would prefer all 180s have a deeper structure, but I assume there are a lot of regs who wouldn't like that. Which is why having rebuys exist is good.

Last edited by Curious George; 03-19-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:48 PM   #505
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Curious George View Post
Thats a quote from AWice. I encourage everybody to share their opinions.

As a direct response, the reason people like rebuy 180s is due to them having a greater possible edge as well as less variance. If you've read this thread and that's anywhere near your conclusion, I really question whether you have the players interests in mind at all.
CG, believe me, I have played 1000s of 3r/180s in my life. They are a great thing. But you can't kill the messenger. What I said are the facts about WHY PS doesn't want higher rebuy 180s. Infact, 3r's are very likely under review. Of course I have the player's interests in mind. But I can't come to the meeting and push to offer a product with 3% rake when similar offerings are 9%. It will never happen. 3r/180s are an anomaly, an artifact of the past.

The best compromise you can try for is to get people interested in a 1r only tournament. Likely they will come out with ZOOM mttsngs within 3 months. When it happens, if you really want rebuy 180s, you can try to get one of those tournaments made into a one-rebuy-only tournament that is likely going to be raked twice.

But really, the distinction is meaningless. The tournament doesn't even offer that much more play ; its a fallacy. The reason is because the blinds go up every orbit (roughly). So you only get a couple extra orbits of play until the average stack is the same as a normal 180. It's the same reason why having a liveament with 25000 chips that starts at 25/50 doesn't offer that much more play than the same tournament that started at 10000 chips.

Last edited by Alex Wice; 03-19-2012 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:55 PM   #506
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Btw if you play 45man SNGs and are willing to discuss rake and the state of the games with me, please skype/AIM me at: alexwice . I am trying to get as much information as possible. Thanks.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:58 PM   #507
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by fightingcoward View Post
the stars rep has stated the concern about not having 11r/180s due to liquidity NOT rake, why is everyone jumping to conclusions?
This is true, but its really all about rake in the end. Because the reason that there is no liquidity is because the fish go broke before PS can rake it all. But it is also true that it would be hard to fill an 11r/180.

Also the point mentioned about 10+2 R is silly. Because it rakes the single-buyin fish extra hard.

Finally they tried 7r/90s and they can't even get those things to run.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:02 PM   #508
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
CG, believe me, I have played 1000s of 3r/180s in my life. They are a great thing. But you can't kill the messenger. What I said are the facts about WHY PS doesn't want higher rebuy 180s. Infact, 3r's are very likely under review. Of course I have the player's interests in mind. But I can't come to the meeting and push to offer a product with 3% rake when similar offerings are 9%. It will never happen. 3r/180s are an anomaly, an artifact of the past.

The best compromise you can try for is to get people interested in a 1r only tournament. Likely they will come out with ZOOM mttsngs within 3 months. When it happens, if you really want rebuy 180s, you can try to get one of those tournaments made into a one-rebuy-only tournament that is likely going to be raked twice.

But really, the distinction is meaningless. The tournament doesn't even offer that much more play ; its a fallacy. The reason is because the blinds go up every orbit (roughly). So you only get a couple extra orbits of play until the average stack is the same as a normal 180. It's the same reason why having a liveament with 25000 chips that starts at 25/50 doesn't offer that much more play than the same tournament that started at 10000 chips.
It offers way more play. There's a reason that the highest winrates are 35-45% in the rebuys but nowhere near that in the freezeouts. I know plenty of regs who have 2-3x the ROI in rebuys as they have in 8s(true ROI, not sharkscope).

I think there are other options besides just making a higher rebuy 180, although thats obviously my preference. A 10+1 cubed would be good. I personally like the idea of a 10+1 cubed zoom, but I think lots of others will disagree. 10+1 45man on demands would also be good.

The reason 180 rebuys are good is it offers MTT sized ROIs with significantly less variance. If that can be imitated in any other way it will be just as good, but the easiest way seems to be just raking the rebuys and adding higher stakes.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:07 PM   #509
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
This is true, but its really all about rake in the end. Because the reason that there is no liquidity is because the fish go broke before PS can rake it all. But it is also true that it would be hard to fill an 11r/180.

Also the point mentioned about 10+2 R is silly. Because it rakes the single-buyin fish extra hard.

Finally they tried 7r/90s and they can't even get those things to run.
Because nobody wants to play 90 mans, they want 180 mans. Regs are boycotting the 90mans.

Its absolutely ridiculous that they won't even trial higher rebuys.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:07 PM   #510
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

rebuys definitly do help my return on investment, theres no comparison. Your far deeper and theres more to play out. I would love to see 10r 180s come in. Literally any rebuy above 3 i would love to see. I don't know why they havn't been included already frankly
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