Should I get away from this? No info on opponent!

Raising the flop is literally the worst thing you could do here.

I would have thought folding would be.

Just call his flop bet with the intention of gii on later streets.

Once you have a stp ratio of 2 on the flop TP is a great hand.

And open-jam this pre. Although, the result would be the same in this particular case.

Well it's never better to raise this hand than call it, and sometimes you can get away with folding, so raising is definitely the worst move on this flop.

I'm not sure why think folding to a 30% donk bet in this spot is any good.

openjam is lol. minraise obv. call flop ffs.

No need to openjam pre. Calling flop is best, but mentally I'm committed with TP otf. The donkbet makes me think he has a worse pair or a gutshot. Not much you could do.

Please could you go over why jamming is bad here? I mean 15bbs amirite?

shove flop
just unlucky

15 BB is generally thought to be way to big to openshove. 15 BB still leaves room for actually playing poker, not just push/fold. There's nothing wrong with a proper b/f line. No one likes to do it, but if you shove with KT you'll only get called by better K, any A, PP.

If you raise to 2 or 2.5 and get shoved over, well they're big stacks, that's their job. But it also sets you up when you have a big pair or big ace, you raise to 2.5 and hope they jam over you.

Finally, sometimes the open-but-didn't-shove looks sketchy enough that it can get through just as easy as the shove, without risking your tourney.

In this ex., 5 players have basically the same stack size, and I'd like to think I'm better than at least a couple of them, so I'm not ready to risk so much equity on a marginal overshove spot. Yeah, part of our advantage as 2+2 non-fish is knowing more about shoving ranges, but also, being better at postflop play. Since both blinds are big stacks, it wouldn't surprise me to see at least one of them call a 2.5 BB open, and we'll see a flop in position.

If OP can give us a read on the blinds next time it might help. For example, if one is a 35/3 fish who lucked into a big stack, I definitely want to play postflop with him.

It's good against like 1/100 guys, but raising is good against 0/100 guys. That's all I was saying.

Me too.

OP - this is why you should just call so that more of villain's weaker hands get the chance to come along.

you joking right? i mean... the pot is 2K the guy have like 4k behind.. top pair.. the best play there is or course to go allin vs sb donk bet.. make him pay for draws midle pairs worst kings etc... you cant do anything else with that stack

you are so wrong... actually vs good regs on the blinds is allot better open jam KT with 15bbs cause they gonna rshove on you K9s Q9s QT QJ i mean you get it right? you gonna be raise folding the best hand vs good players.. so nothing wrong to shove 15bbs.. that new play of 2014 of just raising folding to much with short stacks are just big loolll and so so so exploitable vs of course decent players on the blinds...

Ha, not joking, but shoving over that lead is horrendous and you should really examine your game if that's your standard.

Except you're not a shortstack. And the blinds aren't short either.

As to us folding best hand, what is his shoving range? You're putting him at 28% overshoving, which seems pretty high without a read (OP said he had no read). 20% is 22+ A5+, KJo+, KTs, QJ. We're only 40% vs that range. I'm comfortable with a minbet/fold and move on. If we shove and he calls, I'd put an unknown at about the same 20% calling range, and again, we're way behind that range, which was my point, that we will only be called by better. So an openjam only makes sense if we think both blinds are calling very tight (12% is 66+, A8+, KQ). I think most all of us would call a looks-like-a-steal with a wider range than that.

I'm also fine with people having a different strategy, that's part of the usefulness of 2+2.

My standard is to play push fold at 10 bbs or less, but if folded to in the small blind I play push fold with 15 bbs or less to neutralize the positional disadvantage. Does that make sense or is it crazy to do it differently from the sb? I am adding 2 thirds of the antes into the BB for this purpose too.

15bbs is still shortstack in my land.. even if is a turbo.. and you saying you have 40% vs that range that actually nice cause if you do the math you need less than that to make it ev play.. the worst play there if to raise fold its like not even making sense.. raise calling sucks big too.. so the easy and ev play its just shove..

I'm with you on the 10BB push, I think that's pretty standard, though if there are 1-2 very short stacks then around 10 BB I am more careful. When it comes to play from SB, I too factor in the positional disadvantage, but whereas at a FT most raises from LP are 2-2.5 BB, from SB I'll raise 3x. But that's about as far as I go.

As far as shoving 60-85% BvB, all I can say is to each his own.

this came off the rails - deleted a bunch of idiocy

cool it with the e-peen waving guys