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ICM Tool says fold A9 hear, do we agree? ICM Tool says fold A9 hear, do we agree?

03-15-2015 , 01:59 PM
Basically my first time using an ICM tool so i wanted to get feedback in case i was using it wrong. It says i should on push with:

(34.8%)22+,A2s+,ATo+,K2s+,K9o+,Q4s+,Q9o+,J7s+,J9o+ ,T6s+,T8o+,96s+,98o,86s+,75s+,65s,54s

SB: 44,772 (VPIP: 18.33, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 60)
BB: 21,010 (VPIP: 14.63, PFR: 13.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 83)
UTG: 20,706 (VPIP: 13.03, PFR: 12.17, 3Bet Preflop: 9.49, Hands: 377)
MP: 44,316 (VPIP: 34.04, PFR: 25.56, 3Bet Preflop: 13.51, Hands: 95)
CO: 79,232 (VPIP: 17.98, PFR: 16.22, 3Bet Preflop: 9.22, Hands: 630)
Hero (BTN): 59,964

6 players post ante of 400, SB posts SB 2,000, BB posts BB 4,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 8,400) Hero has 9 K

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 8,000, fold, BB raises to 20,610 and is all-in, Hero calls 12,610

Flop: (45,620, 2 players) 5 A 6

Turn: (45,620, 2 players) 2

River: (45,620, 2 players) 8
03-15-2015 , 10:22 PM
Hey Man,
Take this with a grain of salt - I'm early on in my poker journey and I don't know my ICM that well, so this analysis could be awful. But I'm not sure you're actually facing an ICM problem.

But here is my thinking on the button at the pointy-end of a tournament:
Step 1 - Count the big-blinds - it's folded to the hero who has about 15bbs, the small-blind has 11 and the BB has about 5bb.
Step 2 - Determine what my stack-size says: hero's stack relative to the rest of the table says "steal the blinds"
Step 3 - Before acting, determine what the blinds' stack-size says - small blind is 'steal if not opened', big blind says "I'm desperate - I'm likely to blind out, and a coin-flip is preferable - therefore re-steal with any-two cards"
Step 4 - make my decision.

In my view if you're going to raise this button, you have to shove. My reasoning here is that you have to imagine the table from the opponents' perspective:

Your opponents will know that you're probably stealing - at this stage, any move you make will look like a steal, especially if they're paranoid. However because your stack size covers the small blind AND because there are two smaller stacks than the small-blind he isn't going to be excited to risk his tournament life on a coin-flip (he will snap call with premiums and probably call down to ATo if he thinks you're stealing too much). In his shoes, I'd probably prefer to wait for a better spot.

If you min-raise, and since the small-blind has two-thirds your stack, it is very easy for small-blind to shove and put you in an awkward spot and threaten your tournament life. So, I don't like a min-raise because it gives you an difficult decision here - are you prepared to risk 2/3 of you stack on K9o? Really? A shove doesn't let the small-blind put you in this spot - if you shove, the small-blind likely folds because you're putting his entire tournament life at risk - in the best case on a coin-flip.

From the big-blinds perspective: dude is sitting there with 1bb out there and 4bb behind - if he knows that it's bad to blind-out on the button, then he knows this is his last orbit - as such he knows to play loose, and hope for a coin-flip. Assuming the hero doesn't have a pocket-pair, the most likely scenario our big-blind is facing is two over-cards - so the likely worst-case scenario gives him a 30% chance of a win - in order to call you, he needs to be getting 2:1 or better. If he thinks you're stealing - and he will given where you're at in the tournament - he has no choice but to put all his chips in.

So, let's look at this in terms of numbers -
In the pot there is 2.2bb - hero has 15bb, sb has 11bb and big-blind has 4bb left (he already committed 1bb to this hand and is about to lose another 1/2bb next hand).

You open with a min-raise - the pot is now 16,200 chips, which is 4.2bb - the small blind needs to get 2:1 or better to make the expected value of the move neutral - 4.2bb is more than his stack behind - so if he puts all his chips in the pot the pot is 8.2bb, when you call it will be 12.2bb - therefore when he needs 2:1, your min-raise and eventual call gives him 3.05:1 pot-odds - if you call, his shove is profitable - if you fold ever his shove is even more profitable.

That's why I think this hand is really a shove or fold situation and that your mistake is pre-flop.

On the other hand, if you shove your 15bb immediately into the pot - the pot is 19.2bb, the math doesn't change, but now you have fold-equity - the small-blind has no room to re-steal. If the small-blind shoves over the top of your min-raise you're in a tough-spot and I think putting yourself in a tough-spot is a bad idea. Assuming the small-blind is competent a pre-flop shove, for the most part, makes the small-blind's range really ultra-tight. You also tighten-up the big-blinds range and gain fold-equity from him - let's say he has trash like 32o or worse, dude is likely to think, "oh, damn it - we still have another orbit - I can wait a couple more hands".

By this logic - a limp or a min-raise is sub-optimal because it puts you in a bad position facing a tough-decision. The only time I'd want to invite a resteal is if I absolutely 100% wanted my opponents in the pot - if I were holding premiums and so on, getting them to re-steal may be the only path to getting their chips.

Now, I realise you wanted an ICM answer, but I don't think a min-raise here gets you to an ICM calculation because you give up all that fold-equity.

ICM is based on opponents ranges v your range on your tournament equity. It's a pretty complex way of saying how often they will be able to call you given your holdings, and what that will do the payout you're likely to get.

Tightening your opponents' ranges means they have fewer cards that they can possibly call with, which makes the steal more likely to work. If they wake up with a quality-hand, well it sucks, but that's the game - remember over time you're going to be more profitable. Min-raise, or limping here gives the opponents a reason to open with many many more hands, giving them lots more potential ways to win.

Last edited by Teal_Panda; 03-15-2015 at 10:45 PM.
03-15-2015 , 10:36 PM
Oh - I forgot the A9 thing:

I think folding A9 is mathematically correct once again because of long-winded reasoning:

The big-blind's range has to be pretty wide and include pretty much every single ace.

If you have A9 and an ace comes on the board, there are 8 aces that still beat you - AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs & ATo, making your range AT+ means there are only 6 aces that beat you.

So, perhaps deep in the probability calculation that's what's causing the cut-off?
03-15-2015 , 11:07 PM
im pushing around 24% this is taking out my monsters to r/c with. See the problem with min/raising something like K9o here is that we get screaming odds to call when the bb jams and thats not really ideal for us
03-15-2015 , 11:59 PM
I don't understand the term "screaming odds"
03-16-2015 , 09:44 AM
The ICM tool is fine. The question is what range you told it BB had.

If you mean it says you should open jam those hands I'm surprised it thinks A9o is a fold but not 98o. As a call it makes more sense if you put BB on a range that crushes A9o but not 98o.

The effective stack here is CSI 5. How short would SB have to be to for you to open jam?

I would have to look up the pay outs and put them into nash calculation but I imagine you can jam pretty much anything that at all looks like a 2-card hand here as well as any ace or king.
03-24-2015 , 03:27 PM
good call. Never min-raise fold to BB anything you've opened from the BTN. there are 6 players left. It's too early to think about ICM. This is not even an ICM aware spot, because you're not capped by your villain's stack. I would just shove it pre.
03-24-2015 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kminnik
good call. Never min-raise fold to BB anything you've opened from the BTN. there are 6 players left. It's too early to think about ICM. This is not even an ICM aware spot, because you're not capped by your villain's stack. I would just shove it pre.
You should be thinking about ICM at all stages of a mtt/sng. What are the payouts? Discussing icm without mentioning the payouts makes no sense and it's impossible to see if you used the calculator wrong. The reason why K2s migt be a better push here than A9o (if sb and bb are playing perfect that is) is that it has better equity against sb's calling range (mostly strong aces and decent pairs). sb should be calling really tight because of the small stacks. If you are playing small/micro stakes though, A9 is probably a good shove as a lot of people have no clue about icm and will call with too many weak aces (both sb and bb in this spot). For the same reason a hand like K2s will be a fold against some players (if sb and bb are calling with too many medium/strong Kx, weak Ax, weak pairs etc.). Also, If your ICM calculator doesn't include card removal in it's calculation, then A9 is definately a shove as the A is a blocker against a big part of sb and bb's calling ranges.

Instead of using pefect calling ranges in these spots for sb and bb, you should try to give them ranges that YOU think they will call with. Depending on how your opponent's are playing (reads, stats and population tendencies) K2s could be anywhere from an amazing shove to really bad.

Last edited by Auca32; 03-24-2015 at 10:14 PM.
03-26-2015 , 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teal_Panda
I don't understand the term "screaming odds"
haha you know what i mean you just can't fold.

      
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