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 180 AKo EP open vs Chip leader shove from SB  180 AKo EP open vs Chip leader shove from SB

08-13-2015 , 03:49 PM
I think I'm being results oriented.
How would you respond to a chip leader shove with AKo EP?





    Poker Stars, $7.34 Buy-in (800/1,600 blinds, 150 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37069287

    BB: 21,677 (13.5 bb)
    UTG+2: 7,712 (4.8 bb)
    Hero (MP1): 21,216 (13.3 bb)
    MP2: 6,753 (4.2 bb)
    MP3: 8,895 (5.6 bb)
    CO: 25,971 (16.2 bb)
    BTN: 9,448 (5.9 bb)
    SB: 37,018 (23.1 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K A
    UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to 3,200, 4 folds, SB raises to 36,868 and is all-in, BB folds, Hero calls 17,866 and is all-in

    Flop: (44,932) K J 9 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: (44,932) T (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: (44,932) 3 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: 44,932 pot
    Final Board: K J 9 T 3
    Hero showed K A and lost (-21,216 net)
    SB showed 9 9 and won 44,932 (23,716 net)



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    08-13-2015 , 07:35 PM
    Depending on table dynamics might open shove or mr/c.

    Obviously snap call here
    08-14-2015 , 03:26 AM
    Is this FT2?

    Certainly in a 45 I would be in shove/fold mode with a stack size of 5.89 times the dead money - I don't imagine 180s should be that different.

    As played I call here - you need less than 40% for chip ev.
    08-14-2015 , 05:02 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    Is this FT2?

    Certainly in a 45 I would be in shove/fold mode with a stack size of 5.89 times the dead money - I don't imagine 180s should be that different.

    As played I call here - you need less than 40% for chip ev.
    Yea, this is final two tables.
    I don't have big enough of BR to play these anyways, but it's one way of building BR quickly and play MTT and quickly move up.
    I'm probably results oriented and should just shove pre.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
    08-14-2015 , 08:00 AM
    Yes as a default in those shove pre.

    There is no ICM here payouts are very top3 heavy you have to win some flips to get there.

    There is less variance than in MTTs but variance is still pretty high, you can easily lose 100-200 buy ins
    08-14-2015 , 11:49 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by blank0909
    I don't have big enough of BR to play these anyways, but it's one way of building BR quickly and play MTT and quickly move up.
    The thing is that good BRM is the way to grow your bankroll fast. My 2000th post - which I am working on now - will be about precisely this.

    The basic point is that there are two "slow" ways to grow your bankroll. One way is to play smaller than Kelly Criterion suggests. This is obviously slower because your wins are smaller. The other slow way is to play bigger than Kelly Criterion suggests, which is slower because when you lose a bit you get knocked back quickly to lower stakes and it takes a longer time to grind your way back up again. The "fast" way is to follow Kelly Criterion.

    How to apply Kelly Criterion to common MTTSNG structures will be the subject of the post.
    08-14-2015 , 12:30 PM
    Kelly criterion is an interesting concept and a formula of how much you should play compared to your bankroll but the tricky part is that your edge (critical parameter obviously) is only known after thousands of MTT
    08-14-2015 , 02:12 PM
    Yes, I think you have to err on the side of a lower ROI than your observed one. Also because that makes you play slightly lower - where presumably your winrate is higher. I don't think you should go too far though - it's also good to play as high as you can so you learn quicker.

    The interesting thing with the preliminary numbers is that for 45s the bankroll requirements are about 1/3 what they are for the equivalent ROI and stakes for 180s - but the proportions vary as you vary the ROI.

    For OP though - the important principle that there are two ways to slow down BRM growth, playing too high and playing too low - because only one of those is instinctive. Actually it's like a car - if you want to accelerate quickly then you don't change up gears too quickly, nor do you change up gears too slowly, the quickest way is somewhere in the middle.
    08-17-2015 , 08:21 AM
    i would never be folding AK here. Against chip leader or not... when i see AK with sub 15bbs i have the nuts. we can and should be calling his shove wider then AK. I wouldnt even be folding AJ here had i opened. mind you perhaps i would open shove AJ but regardless

    also i prefer not to open shove because our hand is so strong that i would prefer to have people possible jamming lighter on me
    08-18-2015 , 05:14 AM
    With 13bb its an autocall all day every day, unless there is some extreme ICM-conditions. (dont happen often in 180s)
    08-19-2015 , 09:48 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by oldskool87
    also i prefer not to open shove because our hand is so strong that i would prefer to have people possible jamming lighter on me
    Wouldn't people assume you will be shoving wider than minraising (that's capped range right? )?
    08-19-2015 , 06:01 PM
    Played perfectly.

    Obviously you're snapping the shove. The question is whether or not to minraise. Personally I would. Well played.
    08-20-2015 , 05:07 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matteuszk
    Wouldn't people assume you will be shoving wider than minraising (that's capped range right? )?
    Yeah - when someone shoves when they "could min-raise" or vice-versa the people in this subforum usually assume that the strongest hands are getting minraised and can be taken out of the shoving range - so presumably other players can deduce this too.

    Generally I advocate only having one bet/raise size in a given spot to be used by all hands you would be in that spot with, and I only make a few exceptions to that (e.g. there are some small-medium pocket pairs which are unplayable as min-raises with short stacks around CSI 10-12 but can be unexploitably shoved).
    08-20-2015 , 11:29 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    Yeah - when someone shoves when they "could min-raise" or vice-versa the people in this subforum usually assume that the strongest hands are getting minraised and can be taken out of the shoving range - so presumably other players can deduce this too.

    Generally I advocate only having one bet/raise size in a given spot to be used by all hands you would be in that spot with, and I only make a few exceptions to that (e.g. there are some small-medium pocket pairs which are unplayable as min-raises with short stacks around CSI 10-12 but can be unexploitably shoved).
    Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the reply!
    08-20-2015 , 11:20 PM
    Villains we are facing are not thinking players in general, so im almost always r/c a hand as strong as AK
    08-25-2015 , 08:44 PM
    its a snap mr/c spot for me as i would also have mr/f range w some blockers here. if you dont want to call a reshove w hand this strong, just jam ur entire range pre gl
    08-26-2015 , 04:40 AM
    snappiest of snap calls.

    just be better at flips.

          
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