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MTTSNG Discussion and analysis of MTTSNGs.

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Old 06-08-2017, 03:56 AM   #1
Wohmfg
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45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

On the bubble of a 45man, Nash calculators suggest folding 99 UTG if everyone has 10bbs. Yet you're shoving Ax and K2s, I assume because of blockers. The worst hand you're getting called by is AQo in the BB.

I see very few people play this tight. I do see big stack regs shoving very very wide as big stack to apply pressure. But weaker players can call looser which causes a bad situation for both them and the shoving player, where they are both losing equity. For example I am not shoving any 2 for 10bbs from SB into a fish as they are likely to call a lot looser than Nash says they should due to ICM.

I've also read discussions where apparent good regs have said to ignore ICM. And others have said that ICM is overstated due to the benefits of having a big stack.

So some questions:

Do you fold 99 UTG for 10bbs on the bubble? (assume everyone has 10bbs)

Do you value a big stack at the final table? Does it depend on how many regs and fish there are? Might be easier to exploit regs when you have a big stack?

Overall, how much do you value ICM in 45mans?

Would love to hear thoughts on this!
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:12 AM   #2
mecantplay
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

Nice questions. I am just curious about that.

Its interesting that i have around -30roi in 45 reg speed 1$ and 60roi in 180 reg speed 1$ with sample size of around 500. I play mostly the same. Looks like i play way better with deeper stacks.

I dont fold 99 utg in that situation. Shove like 99+ AQ+. In some situation AQ is r/f but i say vamoo and shove.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:44 PM   #3
PokerGnome.
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

I dont know if this help but I played 2,50 180msng. At finaltable 5 players, Mediumstack on bb with AcJc.
UTG second mediumstack folds
CO bigstack (has me covered) goes all in.
BU scond shortsack folds
SB first shorstack folds
And Hero on bb....folds
That's because of payouts and shortstack players. Its not about taking the risk but more about icm. Is it worth to go for a flip? Checked in ICMIZER and no. Its a fold, what I also did
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:28 PM   #4
micro dong
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

One problem with sngwiz (and presumably other programs) is that it gives you a positive edge (because you're the best player, right?) and factors that in when it should be giving you a negative edge because you have to post 10% of your stack the next hand and 5% the hand after. So yeah, in the first few positions shove wider than Nash.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:31 PM   #5
LektorAJ
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerGnome. View Post
I dont know if this help but I played 2,50 180msng. At finaltable 5 players, Mediumstack on bb with AcJc.
UTG second mediumstack folds
CO bigstack (has me covered) goes all in.
BU scond shortsack folds
SB first shorstack folds
And Hero on bb....folds
That's because of payouts and shortstack players. Its not about taking the risk but more about icm. Is it worth to go for a flip? Checked in ICMIZER and no. Its a fold, what I also did
Need to know stack sizes relative to the blinds and antes. Could be pretty close.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:47 AM   #6
PokerGnome.
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Need to know stack sizes relative to the blinds and antes. Could be pretty close.
it's fold according to ICMIZER and it's more easy to look exactly at bb numbers, like in ICMIZER. Otherwise we're counting....counting....counting the stacksizes
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:54 PM   #7
ArnaldoFior1
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

Hey, I thought Nash should be used in Heads up situations, isn't it?
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:39 PM   #8
Wohmfg
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Re: 45man ICM - does anyone play as tight as Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArnaldoFior1 View Post
Hey, I thought Nash should be used in Heads up situations, isn't it?
The Nash equilibrium is where all players in a game are using a strategy that if deviated from, they will not be playing optimally, provided the other players don't change their strategy.

In poker this most often applies to preflop all ins. This can be with 9 players or 2 players. When the payout structure is not winner takes all (nearly every tournament format), ICM will have some effect on chip values and therefore will change the Nash ranges.

And Nash should be used in heads up situations vs players that are trying to play Nash, and Nash ranges are unexploitable vs all players. But that does not mean that Nash ranges are optimal, as players often deviate from Nash calling ranges.
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