PokerStars - $3.30+$0.20|1500/3000 Ante 300 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 12.49 BB (VPIP: 19.74, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 13.64, Hands: 76)
MP: 43.99 BB (VPIP: 15.07, PFR: 10.96, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 73)
MP+1: 7.37 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 34)
CO: 10.57 BB (VPIP: 26.19, PFR: 13.51, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 43)
BTN: 15.2 BB (VPIP: 17.11, PFR: 14.46, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 188)
SB: 50.93 BB (VPIP: 18.85, PFR: 15.64, 3Bet Preflop: 6.35, Hands: 193)
Hero (BB): 4.43 BB
UTG: 6.19 BB (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 14.63, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 46)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has K J

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (5.3 BB, 2 players) 2 9 K
Hero checks, CO bets 2 BB, Hero raises to 2.33 BB and is all-in, CO calls 0.33 BB

Turn: (9.95 BB, 2 players) 6

River: (9.95 BB, 2 players) 6



Ok. so further to other thread and lektors insight my1st stop and maybe.

This is not an ideal example but best I have from session. Or in this case stop and probably. kjo to strong for this? ok maybe/ maybe not/proably is.

I mean he probably has stuff like k10s qjs maybe some off suits 98s we are ahead of when we just jam. But I don't think we are doing to great vs his open due to the other two stacks he is raising through.

The raise is coming from co through two bigger stacks. he maybe r/f vs them but we have no fe on a shove. Prefer this if we had slightly more chips or our hand was a little weaker. With this stack size we just lose to much with call/folding on bad flops.

so what hands to you think works if this doesn't. or what effective would you make a similar play with?

I think KJo might be too strong for this because you are going to be willing to put the extra 2.33 BB in on almost any flop - probably even the ones with an A as there is too much chance you are ahead already even if you don't pair up. Against a pair lower than a J you have direct pot odds.

So the effect is not that you get useful information (because you'll rarely use it), rather that villain gets useful information - although it doesn't matter much if villain is auto c-betting - it's not useful for him either.

I've been thinking about this. Maybe something like 74o might be good and with stacks of 5BBs (in the calcs below I also count 1BB for SB plus antes so a full pot is 11BB of which we put in 1BB as the blind, 1BB pre and 3BB post if we decide to do it). If you hit a pair one third of the time and go all in, well he might also have a pair 25% of the time (7 or 4 not being heavy in his range plus the blocker so he only really has 2 cards to pair up) so you have 5 outs. If he doesn't have a pair he has 6 outs against you.

So
Miss (2/3 of the time): result -1BB
Both hit but we draw out = 1/3*1/4*1/5 = 1/60 of the time: result +7BB
Both hit and we miss = 1/3*1/4*4/5 = 4/60 of the the time: result -4BB
We hit but he draws out = 1/3*3/4*1/4 = 3/48 of the time: result -4BB
We hit and our hand holds = 1/3*3/4*3/4 = 9/48: result +7BB

The total EV of the above is +0.246 BB, so it's better than folding pre. I also think we can do better than that in some circumstances (if we hit 2 pair or trips he can't draw out). In addition we can sometimes get it in as a 50-50 with and OESD and 6 pair outs against some random overcards. Of course sometimes we are up against an overpair.

We also probably can't jam pre as we don't have 36% equity against his range.

Interesting seems like it makes a sense, nice job!. What range are you giving to villain? And I guess given the odds (app. 1:3,3) after we shove OTF he can not fold even his absolute trash right?

No specific range - it obviously depends on the flop, but generally the rule is that you pair up on 1/3 of flops.

About folding trash on flop, well this is why its so difficult to do calcs preflop for post flop play.

I think villains are going to just c-bet their 3BB into 5BB so we should just check-call as in the hand above.

Of course if we think they will fold to a lead then it sets up another line of analysis of whether we can donk-bluff flop (the more traditional stop and go with a a bit of selectivity).

If we think they won't auto c-bet missed hands then a certain percentage of the "Miss" hands above becomes hands that will hit their pair on the turn, so you change the calcs again.

On the other hand if we think his check-behind range is going to be showdown value then we can just check/fold turn even if we have hit, but when we do GII on the flop it's rarer that he actually has anything, so that changes it again.

When you're so short, it's going to be difficult to make him fold anything on the flop with a stop and go.

It's a more effective strategy when you're 7BB + I'd say, at least you have some fold equity there.

Discounting the combo in OP here, there might be other reasons than having FE postflop. What about hero having the option of check/folding the flop also?

u would corpsey cuz ur a regwhale

Just a nit who likes to see flops.