Poker Stars $3.19+$0.31 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t150/t300 Blinds + t25 - 8 players - View hand 1777444
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BB: t2150 M = 3.31
UTG: t3405 M = 5.24
UTG+1: t3916 M = 6.02
MP1: t1570 M = 2.42
Hero (MP2): t4103 M = 6.31
CO: t5695 M = 8.76
BTN: t5180 M = 7.97
SB: t1830 M = 2.82

Pre Flop: (t650) Hero is MP2 with Q J
3 folds, Hero raises to t600, CO raises to t1200, 3 folds, Hero calls t600

Flop: (t3050) 3 J 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t1200, Hero calls t1200

Turn: (t5450) Q (2 players)
Hero bets t1678 all in, CO calls t1678

River: (t8806) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

I'm folding to a shove ofc and never expected such a small 3bet given the stacks. It does scream monster but by then I have a ridiculous price and a nice hand vs almost anything. Can't really fold post flop.

Just found this hand to be a big mess and not sure what I could have done different. Should I just fold to the small 3bet?

i don't like your minraise...

The SB will be shoving you really light and you will be not happy to call it off..

Or you shove in that spot (it will work if the blinds are tight)
Or you just fold if the blinds are calling light


That's how I would play it

Min-raising pre is fine. Shoving also looks fine. Don't know which is better.
But having done so, make sure you have a plan and follow through with it. I'm guessing you're going to fold to any resistance from CO and BTN, and get it in vs SB and BB...... So do it! Fold to the 3B (though I know it's hard because your hand is so pretty).
Your odds are great but you are dominated so often that even if you hit, you're going to lose fairly often (we have RIOs).

I'd happily call it off vs SB. I think raise/fold is better than open shoving though.

Are we advocating r/f with 13.5bb here?

What's wrong with r/f with 13.5bb? I'm not folding to SB or BB, i'll pick up the pot a lot of the time pre flop and folding to everyone else.

Would you jam this or fold pre?

r/f with less than 18-20bb in MTT's in general is considered utterly terrible. I understand that stacks overall are lower here but there are antes in play here(pot is 650 preflop making the adjusted big blind 433) so stack is actually about 9bb effective and we are raisefolding?!?!? Seems insane.

It could just be me and that I have the whole thing skewed, but seriously, raisefolding when our stack is basically 9bb adjusted for antes makes absolutely no sense to me

before Antes, I still think it's bad but with antes it seems so spewy

Well I can see how from a MTT point of view it's a terrible play but 13.5bb is actually a pretty good stack here. I think anything above 10bb you have the luxury of raising to steal rather than always shoving.

Also seeing as you don't r/f here what would you suggest?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it's not "correct" here, I'm saying that I don't understand how it can be so different as this is just an MTT with shorter starting stacks and can't get how the logic is any different - I'm on here to learn too

POTY

let me rephrase.

When I have watched coaching videos from Pearljammer, JCarver(Jason Somerville) David Redlin, Devo et al, they all operate on this basis - that r/f with less than 18bb is terrible. Unless they speak some hieroglyphic language which makes it sound this way but actually they mean - "r/f 13bb it's super standard". The MTTSNG forum is the only place i've ever seen it deemed acceptable practice to r/f with like 14bb and i'm simply asking... "why"

FWIW i'm a winning MTT/MTTSNG player over 1800+ games - we are talking about semantics around where the limit is that r/f becomes spewy.

Rather than trolling why not actually give some background as to your informed opinion and tell me why it's more important than the coaching opinions of players with over $5m in tournament earnings

I agree that r/f 13bb in a MTT would be bad. I wouldn't do it there but 45 mans are NOT the same as big field MTTs. With 13.5bb we are amongst the chip leaders at that stage. You don't need to panic with a <10bb stack in 45 mans. Survival is much more important than in a big MTT given payout structure.

You can't simply apply 'r/f with less than 18-20bb in MTT's in general is considered utterly terrible' to the 45s because with 18-20bb you are the freakin chip leader!

Yeah MTT is not MTTSnG obv. Some adjustments I need to make for sure

Well, firstly every single high stakes MTT winner is god awful at SnG's. If you can value the crap out of azntracker this easily...then lol!
Poker Stars $55.56+$4.44 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 7 players -

mza33 (SB): t2105 42.10 BBs
Sherfy (BB): t1425 28.50 BBs
JOAO M1955 (UTG): t3090 61.80 BBs
azntracker (UTG+1): t1415 28.30 BBs
Hero (MP): t1805 36.10 BBs
hahahasucker (CO): t1560 31.20 BBs
tatarin96rus (BTN): t2100 42 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is MP with K K
1 fold, azntracker raises to t120, Hero raises to t265, 4 folds, azntracker calls t145

Flop: (t605) 6 3 6 (2 players)
azntracker checks, Hero bets t200, azntracker raises to t1000, Hero raises to t1540 all in, azntracker calls t150 all in

Turn: (t2905) A (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2905) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t2905
azntracker shows 8 8 (two pair, Eights and Sixes)
Hero shows K K (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
Hero wins t2905

And in actual fact, this guy's more SnG than MTT as far as I'm aware. Well, there's a few exceptions from people transitioning the other way, SnG to MTT, but definitely not vice versa. Give Moorman a year in 18 or 45 mans and I'd be shocked if he's over break even.

Secondly, yes it's usually best to just plain shove a higher amount off BB's in MTT's because the money is way further off, average stacks are wayyyyyy bigger, and you're getting called wayyyyy lighter. Very simple theory.

In extreme circumstances, r/fing 8bbs and 3b/folding 12bbs is perfectly fine in SnG's. Very rare, but set ups for it do happen.

ok, ty. I definitely need to adjust my game and drop my r/f stack requirements then