$3.50 45 man - bubble play with KTo - Page 2 - MTTSNG -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Robinho2611 · 07-12-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitlr

Even on the bubble, you could consider calling if you really thought the guy was very wide. ICM hates it, but ICM also (in addition to fEV) doesn't understand who YOU are as a player. Example, if you always play 7 and 15$ 45 mans, then you are in this $3 45 man then obviously it is not as important! But ICM makes everyone the same. If Phil Ivey played this game, it would tell Phil Ivey to fold just like a guy who plays 10 cent games. But that would be silly for Phil Ivey to fold and listen to ICM in a $3 45 man.

Hope this helps.

Hi. Thanks for the comment.

About ICM not understanding who we are as players... Surely if we have an edge over the field, we should be looking for spots with a bigger edge and not simply accepting a marginal +cEV (and IMO -$EV) spot because we can do better. If we don't have an edge then I can see calling as we're not going to get anything better. I mean if we go out (call it 40% of the time) we can no longer use our edge. When we fold, we will be dealt more hands 100% of the time and be able to play each one at a higher standard than the average 3/45er. Is this flawed thinking?

I do understand yours and Mavs' points though - has definitely made me think!

fidstar-poker · 07-12-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitlr

Even on the bubble, you could consider calling if you really thought the guy was very wide. ICM hates it, but ICM also (in addition to fEV) doesn't understand who YOU are as a player. Example, if you always play 7 and 15$ 45 mans, then you are in this $3 45 man then obviously it is not as important! But ICM makes everyone the same. If Phil Ivey played this game, it would tell Phil Ivey to fold just like a guy who plays 10 cent games. But that would be silly for Phil Ivey to fold and listen to ICM in a $3 45 man.

Hope this helps.

So if I'm a better player than Phil Ivey what should I do???

mavs · 07-12-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinho2611

Hi. Thanks for the comment.

About ICM not understanding who we are as players... Surely if we have an edge over the field, we should be looking for spots with a bigger edge and not simply accepting a marginal +cEV (and IMO -$EV) spot because we can do better. If we don't have an edge then I can see calling as we're not going to get anything better. I mean if we go out (call it 40% of the time) we can no longer use our edge. When we fold, we will be dealt more hands 100% of the time and be able to play each one at a higher standard than the average 3/45er. Is this flawed thinking?

I do understand yours and Mavs' points though - has definitely made me think!

I dont think you have much of edge with that stack anyway, just have to pick up a hand and get lucky. Now with 20k stack, you can shove, call, raise/fold, all these options, thats when your real edge comes into play imo.

SngNit · 07-12-2012, 11:01 PM

Don't like the Protege camp's thinking on this at all. Saying you're ignoring the short stack is one thing, but there isn't just one short stack. We are effectivley joint 3rd in chips here, definitely no place to be taking -ev choices. Well my bad actually, I do make a -ev call here cause I prolly call 66, A9s.

Tregon · 07-13-2012, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs

I dont think you have much of edge with that stack anyway, just have to pick up a hand and get lucky. Now with 20k stack, you can shove, call, raise/fold, all these options, thats when your real edge comes into play imo.

Since the other stacks are still short if we double up we can't really r/f but we gain some FE against the stacks to our left. It's not enough to make the call in this hand though.

AkibaRubinst · 07-17-2012, 10:02 AM

I do fold since there is the short one of cards and in given case it goes with a wide range be said 22+A2o+K3o ect ... you are going to go to 60/40 and still you have very much margin to maneuver ... still not these driven to despair like to do this call....