180 man KTs ep 18bb, horrible play? - Page 2 - MTTSNG -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

fish_but_lucky · 07-28-2012, 05:02 PM

simple curiousity,
what would be your opening range there guys?
what would be your calling range vs bb?

Xhisorzz1 · 07-29-2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliquantum

Sorry, still confused. Where have you got 10% from? We only need 34% equity and we have that vs anything wider than a ~6% reshove range. It doesn't matter if we don't have any reads because whether he's bad, good, or otherwise, the majority of players are putting it in with wider than 6%. When we don't have reads, we generalise. Do you think the majority of villains fold 88/AJo/ATs here? If the answer is no, then we need to be calling.

You'd need a solid read that he's super nitty to NOT call here.

correct

betgo · 07-29-2012, 01:33 PM

Raise size was 2.25xBB not 2.5. 2xBB or 2.02xBB are maybe better but whatever.

Fold initially is probably a little better. Close decision to push. Maybe fold to avoid marginal gamble.

fish_but_lucky · 07-29-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betgo

Raise size was 2.25xBB not 2.5. 2xBB or 2.02xBB are maybe better but whatever.

Fold initially is probably a little better. Close decision to push. Maybe fold to avoid marginal gamble.

what would be your opening range there?

betgo · 07-29-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_but_lucky

what would be your opening range there?

Actually, OK to r/f some hands, and I think it is fine to do that with this one.

Marginal whether you can open shove this.

fish_but_lucky · 07-29-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betgo

Actually, OK to r/f some hands, and I think it is fine to do that with this one.

Marginal whether you can open shove this.

i don't know if we can shove here, but maybe its good.
i think the other players calling ranges need to be extremly tight(especially for MP3,CU,BU) for us to be profitable to shove here, but im not sure.
But lets assume they are. Most people who call really tight will not play back at you that much if you minraise there.
And if they all call wide(especially MP3,CO,BU again) i dont think we can value shove here with K10s with 17bb.
I've just started to learn the game seriously so maybe im totally wrong

Aliquantum · 07-29-2012, 03:02 PM

Open jamming 18bb effective is a little overkill IMO.

We definitely need a r/f range here and I think KTs is close. I'd like it more if SB had a little less, or we had a little more.

One thing is for sure, if you can't pull the trigger on the call button when BB puts it in, you shouldn't open this first time around.

Make it a MR pre and it's WP, but open fold isn't horrible either.

betgo · 07-29-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliquantum

Open jamming 18bb effective is a little overkill IMO.

It's really like 13xBB effective because a lot of the stacks to act don't have anywhere near 18xBB.

Aliquantum · 07-29-2012, 03:28 PM

Sure, but there are people behind that have us covered, so we're still risking our stack. Saying we're 18bb effective is correct, because we are.

We can't be sure the players behind are tight enough to make open jamming +cEV, and even if they are it is soooo thin.

fish_but_lucky · 07-29-2012, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliquantum

Sure, but there are people behind that have us covered, so we're still risking our stack. Saying we're 18bb effective is correct, because we are.

We can't be sure the players behind are tight enough to make open jamming +cEV, and even if they are it is soooo thin.

agree

martin_malin · 07-29-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliquantum

Sure, but there are people behind that have us covered, so we're still risking our stack. Saying we're 18bb effective is correct, because we are.

We can't be sure the players behind are tight enough to make open jamming +cEV, and even if they are it is soooo thin.

There's just no way a jam can be -cEV...but I agree with you that it ain't going to show a big edge. That being said, I like min raising.

Aliquantum · 07-29-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin_malin

There's just no way a jam can be -cEV...but I agree with you that it ain't going to show a big edge. That being said, I like min raising.

Yeah, virtually everyone behind would have to be calling nut perfect against our exact holding for it to be -cEV, which might as well be impossible. I worded that poorly - I meant I'm not happy shoving 18bb for half of a SB or whatever it might be.

dcdoorknob · 07-29-2012, 10:57 PM

Shoving is very like +cEV, but we can raise/fold against those who have us covered and raise/call against those who are short enough to leave us priced in, plus it lets the loose-passive spewy flatters flat which is fine, so I just see no need to shove. This guy is obviously of the latter variety (we're priced in), so call now.