My friend, who is now a dentist, was telling me that he used to be a web developer. He worked for a company, but his plan (prior to getting laid off) was to get experience and a (good) reputation so he could work independently. Why be a middle man if you don't have to?

He said he LOVED his job..****ch more so than dentistry and he regrets leaving the field.

Is there still a good market for this field and is it fairly easy to work solo and get clients? Kinda cool that you can work out of your home if you choose.

Also, and forgive my ignorance, but isn't it easier to learn how to develop websites as opposed to software development in an object oriented environ (Java, etc). I live in the silicon valley and the high end developers here, many of which have attitude, tell me that HS students can develop websites, but most s/w developers in this area have a masters in CS or better. Personally I could care LESS about prestige. I just want a good (paying) career. Snobbery is not my objective.

Thanks

P.S. What are useful tools/applications to learn to be a web developer and can you learn these independently, i.e. at home, over the web??

The two things you should research are Python/Django and Ruby/Rails. Pythona and Ruby are the languages, Django and Rails the web frameworks (based on the idea of model,view,controller or MVC).
I guess Node.js etc. are also options but my guess is those two would be the best bet from a learning to results standpoint.

You should also understand general web technology i.e. HTML, how HTTP works a bit about security, databses and database options, JavaScript and CSS

I think just pick Django or Rails, google for their website, intro videos and so forth and start building stuff.
The biggest obstacle in the beginning is to not get overwhelmed by the bazillion of choices you have. Pick one, follow tutorials untill the end, try to soak up the information then build a little testproject to see if you understood everything.

It's probably not a great idea to get into the "we will build your website" business. You want to build web based solutions to problems (web based dentist office management and the like)

I have a few friends who work in web development who convinced me to go into the field. I just started learning from scratch in maybe January, with some time off due to laziness. I'm now looking for a job at a small start up because I have limited experience and am not in the need for immediate income. I'm also more interested in working in the start up environment, so my job would encompass slightly more than just coding.

It's pretty easy to learn on your own, there are tons of great resources online for learning any language. I'm doing Ruby on Rails, but I'm sure everyone would have their own preference. It's definitely easier to make functional websites quicker than it would be to make some sort of distributable program using java or w/e, which is part of what makes it easier to learn. The fact that you can see your project up and running so fast is very rewarding.

Also, it's a very hot field because pretty much everyone needs a site made. If you aren't aching for cash right away it's pretty easy to break into (I'm hoping anyway haha). If you have any questions about learning Ruby on Rails I think I have a decent outline for how best to approach it at this point, so send me a PM. You can do it 100% at home for very little money.

You can also just try it out for a little and see if you like it at all. Do it in your spare time, etc...

edit: It can also be a little bit overwhelming at first if you haven't made sites in a while. HTML/css are pretty easy, but combine learning those with learning a language and framework and some JS and you'll have a lot of headscratching initially. You'll definitely get over that hurdle pretty quickly though and see some awesome results, particularly with something like RoR or the like where you can make powerful sites pretty quickly.

Web dev (if you go all the way) actually requires you to keep up with so many things that IMO it's much more demanding than most fields.

html, javascript (+dozens of libs/frameworks), css (+multiple pre-processors)
Then you have multiple projects that try to tie those 3 things together as a base to work off of.
Then you have to worry about browser/device compatability which could easily end up being 50 different combinations only counting semi-modern grade A browsers and devices with versions included.

Ok, that's a lot of information in itself but that's not even remotely close to what you need to know in the end.

Now you have to pick what language you want your server side code to be written in? There's about 15 choices here but the popular ones are php, javascript, ruby, python, java, .net and erlang.
Then you have to figure out which libs and frameworks you'll likely use. There's about 3-4 really good ones for each language.

Now you get to learn about 4 different types of databases and about a dozen different actual database platforms to choose from. Most of them are extremely different and have their own sub-languages to learn in addition to knowing why you would choose them and how to structure data inside of them.

Now if you want to go beyond anything trivial you'll likely want to setup a proper local development envoirnment. Unless you picked .net as your server side language you'll likely be hosting your web apps on linux. That means you'll want to definitely familiarize yourself with setting up a linux based web server and also get used to installing your "stack" (everything required for your app to work). Don't forget about wading through dozens of different testing frameworks too because you'd have to be retarded not to test your web apps with testing tools because 1 change means you need to test your stuff in ~50 different enviorments + the server code. I'm ignoring version control too because that's a given, right?!

Nice, you're about half way there haha. Now you get to learn all of the above (maybe 2-3 server side languages tho, you don't need to learn them all) and to perform your job at an optimal level you will need to pick the right tools for the job and glue everything together properly.

There's still a lot more to learn too, like how to fix problems that wind up happening in production which only comes with experience. You'll also want to figure out how to scale out at some point if you expect to ship a non-trivial app. That might be either learning one of the various cloud services really well, or learning how to do it yourself which ends up being a totally different job in itself but is similar enough to be worth knowing/fun/interesting.

That only covers the technical stuff though. You need to actually learn how to program because tools are just a means to an end, they are exactly what they are; tools. You also need to know how to communicate with clients and be able to transform their non-technical business plans into a working solution/end product, this in itself is extremely difficult and there's entire armies of developers who can't do this.

The best part about it is your trade is like voodoo magic to anyone who doesn't do it. They have absolutely no idea what you need to do to make their site work. Explaining what a dentist does and how he has value is really easy, anyone can relate to that.

IMO, scala is the next big thing but learning that right now will not lead to as many immediate job opportunities as python/django or ruby/rails.

great post shoe.

Shoe Lace, I'm sure you're a nice guy, but I have to completely disagree with everything about your post. I think it highly exaggerates the difficulty of entering this field, which only serves the purpose of discouraging someone who has an interest they would like to pursue.

It's funny, I occasionally am forced to interact with lawyers. They do the exact same thing to non-lawyers.

Just use jQuery and jQuery Mobile or one of the other mobile JS/CSS frameworks, and validate your HTML. Problem solved. If there were some way to actually know, I'd bet my house that you don't actually test on 50 different browser/device combos for shipping.

erlang? Wtf is erlang? I literally just had to google it b/c I've never even heard of that. Stackoveflow questions tagged erlang: 2,557. Tagged PHP: 261,895.

I'd guess that less than 10% of all developers have a strong working knowledge of every one of those you listed, if you don't count erlang. Less than 1% if you count erlang, whatever that is.

To get started, just pick PHP, Ruby, or Python and start learning it. Those 3 are BY FAR the most popular and widely used for web apps. Once you get a strong handle on one of those, if it becomes necessary to learn another, it'll be an easy transition.

False. Why is it necessary to learn and use a framework to get started? Learn the basics of the language, and when you're comfortable with it, frameworks are easy to pick up b/c they're just extensions of the language you already know. And if you do get stuck, just Google it, click the link to Stackoverflow at the top, and enjoy the clear, concise answer you just found. (Soon you'll learn to skip Google and just go to SO).

What? Something like 40% of web developers just use MySQL. Are there any databases in popular use that aren't compliant with ANSI SQL? It's a standard, which literally means that the same commands work regardless of whether you paid Oracle tons of money for your DB or you used the free, equally-performant-in-nearly-all-cases-save-a-few-one.

Good call. I like PHP for web dev, so I use WampServer. Just download it and you'll have it up and working in about 5 or 10 minutes.

First, there are so many tutorials on Linux and web servers online that good, reliable information is literally everywhere. And, it's been so developed and analyzed, and just flat out used so freaking much, that best practices for usage for anything aside from the most complex scenarios are practically beyond dispute.

Wait, I thought we already said you had to learn one of those languages above?

Ahhh, that explains it.

That's sort of like asking "Are any browsers not CSS-compliant?" Actually, no database or browser is compliant, though superficially they all get (most) of the basics about the same. If I recall correctly, MySQL is the least compliant.

Fair enough, but that's not my point.

My point was that the post implies that in order to enter the web dev field, it's a prerequisite to learn each separate database, and that they're all entirely different. That just isn't true. A great deal of web developers rely on MySQL and nothing else, and in most situations, it would be a mistake to use something else (considering investement $, availability of qualified talent for hiring, performance, etc.).

Just for the record, I'd argue that "CSS compliant" is much more of a fiction considering that Firefox, Chrome, and IE each have different, incompatible CSS3 rules. At least for SQL most of the same commands, table structure, etc., are compatible across DBs. And anyone who has done it for more than 5 minutes can tell you how annoying it is to support the millions of people who have yet to learn how bad Internet Explorer sucks.

What does me saying that most people see this trade as voodoo magic explain exactly? I can't think of a single person I know online or in real life who understands programming but isn't a programmer. To everyone I speak with who aren't programmers I'm just "the guy who makes websites".

I don't care if someone new is trying to learn this stuff. Go look at my posts in this forum, most of them are helping people learn (ask daveT if he remembers a ~year ago ).

I'm just laying down exactly what is needed to really get your hands dirty as a serious web developer who wants to do this for a living. Not someone who wants to put up a crappy static site in 3 days with no prior experience.

The (tens of?) thousands of developers who make a living without knowing a quarter of the stuff you outlined in your post render your posts itt invalid.

Yes becoming a well rounded developer will take time (a lifetime) but earning a living writing code is way easier than you make it sound.

I was gonna reply, but this pretty much covers it.

I suppose I do owe an explanation for this.

You didn't merely state that, as a matter of objective fact, people often view web development as voodoo magic. You said that the best part of development is the fact that people view it as voodoo magic. You then reinforced your point with the dentist example.

My comment was meant to suggest that your statement, taken together with the highly exaggerated list of necessary skills you listed, gives rise to an inference that your intent for posting was not to offer a helping hand to someone interested in the field, but rather to impress others with your own knowledge, and possibly even to intimidate a newcomer.

I don't doubt that you've been helpful to others in the past. But what I've found to be true in so many cases is that more experienced developers will jump at the chance to help each other, but can't wait to stomp on the heads of beginners. It leads me to believe that their (not your) purpose for helping in those limited cases is merely to boost their self image by impressing their peers. It's an annoying trend that has plagued the development community for a very long time.

I suppose it's possible that I have entirely misjudged your post. If so, I'd love to hear an argument for why you truly believe that the list of skills you offered are all necessary for entering this field, and how your opinion that the best part of the job is public perception is entirely unrelated to the list you gave.

This is funny- this is almost exactly what I've been doing. Started learning Webdev (rails, mainly) at the beginning of this year, then took a big paycut to join a tiny start up, where I' m working at now. Are you working in the SF area?

And your screen name looks familiar- I think we've battled on pokerstars SSSH back in the day?

Re: sdturner/shoelace's discussion:
disclaimer: I only have about 6 month's solid programming experience under my belt (EE major but only took like 2 CS classes)
but I see both of the viewpoints- starting off learning Ruby/Rails, it seemed pretty straightforward. Some tough concepts but nothing I couldn't get through with a bit of studying. Took a few tutorials and had workable web apps up and running. Pretty rewarding after just a few weeks of reading.

Then I started at a startup. It blows my mind what a solid 'technical guy' needs to know to get a good (useful) website up and running. Languages, precompilers, frameworks, libraries, front-end stuff, back-end stuff, on and on. This was something I read on HackerNews that sums it up pretty well - http://tilomitra.com/the-crazy-world-of-code/.

So in short, I think web development/programming is easy enough to pick up, but it'll take years and years to understand all of the languages and nuances, especially if you want to be a well-rounded, full-stack developer (or be VP engineering/CTO of a company).