** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

[ThaHero]

Yeah the only reason I mention BASIC is because it's part of the curriculum, at least on the syllabus. I'm not even sure why?

I'm gonna go forward. There's plenty of resources here and elsewhere. I'm gonna get a head start on Python now and take up Java when school starts in a month. Thanks for the input!

[daveT]

As much as I want to troll that post, I decided to delete that response and do this instead:

Here's some reading for people who may be interested. Create or Perish: Case for Inventions and Patents. Pretty short read, but I haven't read it, so use it at your own risk: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrica..._or_perish.pdf

And also, a less scholastic approach to the whole debate, but if what it says is true, then it's scary:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...atents-attack/

[NoahSD]

I think it's kind of surprising that anyone learns Python before C (or something similar--at least something statically typed). Obviously, Python is infinitely more practical than C. But, I feel like there's a ton of subtle background knowledge that you need to know if you're going to program in Python, and I couldn't see myself learning all of that stuff efficiently in any way besides by learning a bit of C. (Obviously learning a ton of C is above and beyond the call, and learning C++ is masochistic.)

I just feel like you could sit down and learn Python and then find yourself really confused down the road when it turns out you don't understand some basic concepts about datatypes or low-level operations, which Python (and almost everything else) inherits from C. Worse still, there's a decent chance you won't even know what it is that you don't know, which is a hellish place to be.

That said, learning to program without ever encountering a seg fault would be pretty fun. Python is an awesome language (my current preferred language by a mile), and I might be totally wrong that it's hard to learn from scratch(ish).

[adios]

Originally Posted by Chips Ahoy

The bolded is offsetof(). The rest of your post makes me glad I migrated to c#.

It's a trick the first time. The second time it's a technique.

Good post.

You bolded the most relevant part. The macro is pretty much used all the time by Windows kernel mode device drivers as a way to maintain linked lists interfaces that are node type independent. My current assignment has me involved totally in Windows 8 kernel mode drivers. Trying to decide if the Windows Driver Model (WDM) is unduly complicated or not. I get that Plug and play (PnP), controlling power to devices and having an interface that handles a large set of different devices makes calls for abstractions. Not sure about the abstraction I guess.

[clowntable]

Originally Posted by ThaHero

Quick question, been searching around a bit on learning two programming languages at once.

I'm in CC right now, transferring this year. My school offers C++ and Java, but first I have to take an intro class that teaches BASIC/Python. I have the option to take them concurrently however.

It seems like Python is different enough/easy enough that I could take one of the other courses as well. I learned BASIC in elementary school, which was like 20 years ago but I actually remember some things.

If I decided to do this I'd probably start right now on Python since I have about a month before school starts. Just not sure Java vs. C++(leaning towards C++).

Learn Python. It's really easy to pick up, too. Didn't know Basic is even offered these days. Yikes.

The second language really doesn't matter because Python covers most things you'd want to do these days that aren't too specialized. Java is good for jobs and if you know Python it's not hard to pick up (but somewhat frustrating).
C++ meh the good news is you'll learn about memory management and some neat stuff but it's harder and also used in more specialized fields (f you want to get into serious game development go with C++)
---

Also I was thinking about creating some sort of programming course from scratch that teaches you valuable skills but is mostly practical, reusing as much material as possible. I think I'd want to cram a bunch of languages into it actually. Basically I kind of want to build some sort of layman to can develop software in BA time. Here's what my rough draft looks like:

0) I would use as much Open Source/Free stuff as possible and also stay away from stuff that is coupled to certain companies. I think it's pretty important that all the tools/skills etc you are exposed to are long time use etc.

A - Programing
A1) First language: Something functional Common Lisp,Scheme,Clojure,ML,Haskell etc. pp. Because it's the first language I'd prefer easy to learn/good learning materials. I think it comes down to Scheme and Clojure, I'm leaning Scheme
A2) Python/Ruby - A mainstreamy, easy to learn, high efficiency language. I think Ruby would be better because the OOP stuff is fairly well done and it could double as an intro to OOP language. Python's main advantage imo is that it's used quite a bit in sciencey fields. Anyways, either pick should be fine.
A3) "Web stuff". Just a mixture of JS,HTML,CSS and so forth. Use CoffeeScript, Sass and so forth can also add App stuff here, probably with some multi platform stuff like Ruby??? (forget the name). Dunno if this should use Rails/Django or maybe NodeJS so we can do the JS in more detail.
A4) Concurrency=Erlang. Going to become more and more important, hype language as well so it can't hurt to have it in your arsenal.
A-Extra) ASM,C or C++: Mostly for low level stuff. I think I like a combination of ASM/C here. Including experimentation of writing C code, compiling it and looking at the generated ASM and getting the link. Could very well be linked to embedded development and so forth, maybe using Arduino boards or something.

B- Fundamenetals
B1) Design patterns in all shapes and forms
B2) Light CS theory. Algorithms, search/sort and so forth
B3) Databases. Generaly theory RDBMS vs documents stores, No-SQL and so forth and in depth introduction to one RDBMS (Postgres)
B4) Networking
B5) Security

C- Practical concerns
C1) Version control and why it matters (SVN and Git imo)
C2) TDD, Agile, development best practices and all that mumbo jumbo (basically Code Complete, Pragmatic Programmer and so on knowledge)
C3) Reading/writing documentation, Open Source how does it work

The key is having a bunch of good programming projects, basically people should be coding something fun at all times. Actually they shouldn't just be coding but go through the entire planning,design and so forth cycle of projects.

[klior]

Originally Posted by clowntable

Learn Python. It's really easy to pick up, too. Didn't know Basic is even offered these days. Yikes.

The second language really doesn't matter because Python covers most things you'd want to do these days that aren't too specialized. Java is good for jobs and if you know Python it's not hard to pick up (but somewhat frustrating).
C++ meh the good news is you'll learn about memory management and some neat stuff but it's harder and also used in more specialized fields (f you want to get into serious game development go with C++)
---

Also I was thinking about creating some sort of programming course from scratch that teaches you valuable skills but is mostly practical, reusing as much material as possible. I think I'd want to cram a bunch of languages into it actually. Basically I kind of want to build some sort of layman to can develop software in BA time. Here's what my rough draft looks like:

0) I would use as much Open Source/Free stuff as possible and also stay away from stuff that is coupled to certain companies. I think it's pretty important that all the tools/skills etc you are exposed to are long time use etc.

A - Programing
A1) First language: Something functional Common Lisp,Scheme,Clojure,ML,Haskell etc. pp. Because it's the first language I'd prefer easy to learn/good learning materials. I think it comes down to Scheme and Clojure, I'm leaning Scheme
A2) Python/Ruby - A mainstreamy, easy to learn, high efficiency language. I think Ruby would be better because the OOP stuff is fairly well done and it could double as an intro to OOP language. Python's main advantage imo is that it's used quite a bit in sciencey fields. Anyways, either pick should be fine.
A3) "Web stuff". Just a mixture of JS,HTML,CSS and so forth. Use CoffeeScript, Sass and so forth can also add App stuff here, probably with some multi platform stuff like Ruby??? (forget the name). Dunno if this should use Rails/Django or maybe NodeJS so we can do the JS in more detail.
A4) Concurrency=Erlang. Going to become more and more important, hype language as well so it can't hurt to have it in your arsenal.
A-Extra) ASM,C or C++: Mostly for low level stuff. I think I like a combination of ASM/C here. Including experimentation of writing C code, compiling it and looking at the generated ASM and getting the link. Could very well be linked to embedded development and so forth, maybe using Arduino boards or something.

B- Fundamenetals
B1) Design patterns in all shapes and forms
B2) Light CS theory. Algorithms, search/sort and so forth
B3) Databases. Generaly theory RDBMS vs documents stores, No-SQL and so forth and in depth introduction to one RDBMS (Postgres)
B4) Networking
B5) Security

C- Practical concerns
C1) Version control and why it matters (SVN and Git imo)
C2) TDD, Agile, development best practices and all that mumbo jumbo (basically Code Complete, Pragmatic Programmer and so on knowledge)
C3) Reading/writing documentation, Open Source how does it work

The key is having a bunch of good programming projects, basically people should be coding something fun at all times. Actually they shouldn't just be coding but go through the entire planning,design and so forth cycle of projects.

Thank you, great post.

[clowntable]

Oh forgot to mention...I'd start with a functional language because I think (and it seems to be a common perception) that it's easier to learn functional first, imperative later than the other way around.

I think I'd actually like to create a seperate thread for this a la "Design the perfect 3 year layman software development course" and see how others would go about it.

[Ryanb9]

I heard on npr yesterday that microsoft posted a quarterly loss for the first time in 24 years or something like this.

[kerowo]

Was on Slashdot yesterday, first quarterly loss ever for MS. Kind of surprised it took this long actually, what with Vista an all.

[fluorescenthippo]

Originally Posted by tyler_cracker

basic is useless: not practical, doesn't teach you anything. python is relatively awesome. so that choice is easy.

c++ is a more difficult language which will teach you more. however it's ugly compared to java, and probably less marketable. java sucks, but is still widely used in industry and makes a better platform for learning about object oriented programming than c++.

why does java suck? is C# superior?

[Ryanb9]

Originally Posted by fluorescenthippo

why does java suck? is C# superior?

to program in yes C# is superior imo. but java is java ... its everywhere.

edit: if you are trying to decide between the two just write a few basic programs in each and if one is better for you than the other then so be it.

[TheIrishThug]

I agree with Ryan. Since Java came first, C# could take some lessons learned right out of the gate. Also, C# has been more consitently updated, adding a number of nice features. I haven't gotten around to using Java7 yet, but it looked like there was some good stuff in there.

I'm one of the outliers here, but I don't think Java sucks.

[daveT]

Originally Posted by clowntable

I'd start with a functional language because I think (and it seems to be a common perception) that it's easier to learn functional first, imperative later than the other way around.

Source?

I can sort of understand saying it is hard to think in functional paradigms if you are only familiar with imperative programming, but I don't think that there is any logical reason to believe that functional programming is easy.

[NoahSD]

Dumb question:

My buddy has a ton of PDFs full of data tables that he wants to be able to import into a db. He tried a few pdf -> text and pdf -> excel conversion programs, but they all screw up the formatting in ways that seem pretty unrecoverable--the order of the text is all wrong. But, if I just literally open the PDF and just copy the text, I get something that's formatted pretty well. There's way too many PDFs to do this manually. Is there any nice way to automate that process?

[Ankimo]

Regarding the negativity towards C++

If you are doing game programming, systems (i.e. OS) development or writing algos in finance, you definitely need C++.

If it's programming as a hobby, then yeah it's fine to stay away and all the suggestions of python, ruby, java are fine.