would you prefer they remove all forms of communication? As that's the only way to prevent harassment (yes this includes code, because you could comment in some harassment).

So maybe, just maybe, this isn't about preventing all harassment - because that would auto-assume guilt, but actually about preventing further harassment once some amount has been identified.

That's what happens even when there is a code of conduct except that people actually know what is expected of them instead of finding out from management when a disciplinary action is taken. Having the code doesn't take the discretion out of the enforcement process.


You miss the point of the code. It's just like laws. Laws don't really do much to prevent crime but they let people know what society expects of them and lays out the potential consequences for their actions when they fail to follow the laws.

My take from someone who is pretty much not that knowledgable about a lot of GitHub projects is that there are a fair amount of people on these projects making "over the top" commentary on GitHub. Therefore GitHub is trying to reign in that kind of commentary with this code of conduct. Addressing what "over the top" consists of and how to resolve disputes about someone accused of being "over the top" seems like a good thing. The post JJ made illustrating productive and unproductive commentary was excellent.

In my view most developers are at least somewhat emotionally attached to their work product and thus can and do react emotionally (unproductively) to criticism. Also people reviewing/scrutinizing other developers work product can and do react unproductively when it deviates from the approach they would take. I could be wrong but this code of conduct seems to be an attempt to foster a lot more productive commentary and a lot less unproductive commentary in reviewing and contributing. Given the nature of GitHub this seems like a perfectly legitimate goal.

My take on the issues Greg has with it is that he believes that potential for abuse is great because people can easily falsely accuse someone of violating the code. Greg if I am misreprenting your view then apologies. If I was running things at GitHub my reaction to this would be, we'll have to see how it works out but the objective of fostering a lot more productive commentary is one we will not compromise on.

because ive explained it already and you just either arent reading it or fundamentally disagree. the problem may be because you and i have a different view on the current state of reality. you seem to think that everyone currently accepts and allows harassment and that's why these codes are necessary.

right. so then the same way that "laws don't really do much to prevent crime", these codes won't do much to prevent harassment. a good person doesn't need laws to tell them to act good. a harasser is gonna harass regardless when triggered by the situation.

but if you want to implement laws/codes/etc as a strategy to lay out expectations and consequences, then its purpose is for the disciplinarian to cover themselves. i suppose that is a decent justification for their existence. then when you kick someone out, you can now point to the codes to say "we warned you, these were our rules, you can't complain/sue/etc". this benefits the project/maintainer/company and if thats the purpose i can't argue with that. but you're protecting yourself. you're not protecting any victims of harassment. the same result would occur for the victims regardless, by the same process of presumably removing the offender even if there were no official codes (although jj thinks this process wouldn't happen, and the offender would be allowed to stay). in that case, the head figure's judgement should be called into question, but if thats the case hes not gonna adopt the code into his project/company anyway

fair enough

anyway, ive spent too much time in this thread and need to get back to productive work. i said pages ago that perhaps i'm overreacting to this, so we'll see how it plays out. it just rubbed me the wrong way, and i've tried to explain why. seems like most everyone disagrees so might as well just drop it

You realize harassment isn't a thing that happens once and then never again, right?

Actually you haven't. To explain this statement (which you've made multiple times) you'd actually need to point to something that does both:

1. Is of no benefit to actual victims of harassment.
2. Is of actual benefit to 'fake' victims of harassment.

Forget about the thing in its entirety, can you even point to one actual thing in there that does both of these things?

I don't think 'everyone' does. I think some people do. There's a difference.


Except, we've already seen how the code of conduct can be beneficial. You clearly don't know how to communicate as a productive adult (source: your example of what you want to say to a 'bad' developer). Hopefully you've learned something ITT about appropriate and constructive ways to behave.

There are lots of other developers out there that are good people but don't realize that some of what they think is appropriate to say - really isn't. Hopefully this educates them as well.

I'll be honest, I'm pretty sick of working in a field that is overwhelmingly male dominated.

And a large percentage of the women that I have worked with have left the field or told me about unbelievably irritating behaviour they've have had to endure to stay in the field. If I have a daughter one day I'm hoping that she'll be able to choose a field that interests her without dealing with a bunch of extra bull****.

If a bunch of ignorant and self-entitled people like those that think a code of conduct like this is a big imposition on them feel the need to leave the field or the communities I'm part of - that's just an added bonus.

Yah if things don't change and I hit my 30s with very little young eye candy to go around.
I'll be so disappointed that i'll have flashbacks of when deciding doctor or programmer was a thing and it will probably haunt me.

I don't think its specifically a male problem tbh

Throughout my life i've had problems with women grabbing my butt and penis through my pants, both at school and in the workplace. After seeing the crazed look in these womens eyes its hard to imagine that a code of conduct would have stopped them.

The men, on the other hand, have always been pretty reasonable. In my early 20s I was waiting tables at an applebees and my male manager asked me to suck his dick. When I said no, he then cordially offered to suck my dick, to which I also declined. We came to a mutual understanding and there were no problems after this incident.

Yep happens all the time and I don't blame them; everyone knows how easy it is for them to get away with whatever they want.

I think someone's sarcasm detector is off

the irony

I posted it because I know it's funny but it's also 100% true. The assgrabbing at applebees was a serious problem. The women had strong hands from carrying multiple plates around all day too so their grabs were like an electric shock.

I didn't say whose was off.

But yeah, Applebee's is basically like all jobs in the history of the U.S. ever.

I have no problem with their code of conduct stuff, but this seems like a bridge too far:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9966118

LOL at the comments
https://github.com/nixxquality/WebMC...65860a84708d67

Wow @ this:

https://github.com/nixxquality/WebMC...mment-12417836

Translation: GitHub support people who are given powers to shut down repositories do not understand how Git and GitHub work.

When did the word "******" attain this privileged status? Lots of words are offensive in this sense - just off the top of my head, idiot/dummy/dumb all refer to some kind of disability and the use of the word "dummy" to mean some kind mock/imitation/copy is particularly offensive if you realize that it's a pejorative for a deaf-mute person.

You haven't been able to say "******" on TV for 20 years.

I don't know, I recall hearing "don't say that! My sister is ******ed and it isn't funny!" when I was growing up, but then again, I didn't have a sheltered upbringing.

e i pi, I think that you bring up a decent point. The tech industry could learn a lot from the restaurant industry. Not only about how men and women can behave toward each other, but many other things as well.

I wish I could find it, but I recall seeing a comedian doing a stand up about politically correctness. The punchline was:

"""
I used to work as a bartender. My coworker came by and said my friend came by and wanted to chat with me.

Oh, where is he, I asked.

He turned around to point but didn't see him.

'Well, okay, was he black?'

He face looked really confused: 'I didn't notice.'
"""

The fact is, we all got sucked into this politically correct system and it sucks for all of us. We got what other people asked for. Obviously, there is no need to be a jerk, but we are way overly sensitive, or rather, we are surrounded by a bunch of idiots who think it is okay to be overly sensitive, and I'm sure a large part of life is turning into part Poe's Law, and part everyone is going through the motions but not a single person believes a single line of the bull**** we are being fed.

perhaps i should've started my thread over on hackernews

seems the commenters there are more my wavelength compared to the commenters here.


over/under on how long until the comments from that commit are deleted and censored?

Congratulations. You lived long enough that the things you grew up saying are now considered offensive.

Consider asking your parents how it felt when they were asked by society to no longer use the 'N' word. Because I'm pretty sure some of them (parents) were as upset about being asked to change their vocabulary as you are now.

I know, it sucks. You grow up knowing which words not to say and feel like you should get a pat on the back for not saying those words, but wait! Now people come along and tell you that there's new words that are offensive? That you might have to do some work to change and fit in with society?

Well **** all that ****! Everything you were told growing up is just the way it is and anyone who disagrees is an overly-sensitive PC thug!

The point of that sketch was that we backed ourselves into such a corner we can no longer speak. When we can't identify a person as "black," or even "African American" without offending some population, or we can't say "our programmer" and mention the gender without someone taking free license to go off on us.

We've done a massive disservice to our language and our ability to express things in a non-offensive way. We end up with echo chambers, ad hominems, and blatant disregards for the truth, and allow people to paint each others with wide brushes colored in "anti-X," which is seldom a fair personification of a person for the use of innocent words. This is what the OP is railing against, and yes, it is the very thing that keeps so many people, especially women, out of tech, IMO.

I'm talking from the perspective of 1984, not the perspective of the N word.

more nonsense
https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

In isolation, I can't derive anything at all from that tweet. What was he replying to?