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Old 04-13-2012, 03:50 PM   #31
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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I can't imagine a benevolent alien species having the technological capabilities to find us and somehow not having a solution to the disease problem.
I will have to disagree. Just because you figure out how to travel long distances in space means you have a full understand the biology of a completely unknown species.

I actually could see a possibility of the same type of thing happening like happened to the Native American's.

Look at the The 1918 flu pandemic (the "Spanish flu") Between 50 and 100 million died, making it one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history. Even using the lower estimate of 50 million people, 3% of the world's population (which was 1.86 billion at the time died of the disease. Some 500 million, or 27%, were infected.

This was not that long ago. We are far more a risk with this type of encounter than we may want to admit.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:51 PM   #32
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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I will have to disagree. Just because you figure out how to travel long distances in space means you have a full understand the biology of a completely unknown species.
They won't need a full understanding of unknown biology. A space faring benevolent species that travels around the universe looking for life to help out will certainly know of the risk of disease and find a way to communicate with an unknown species in a manner that minimizes this risk.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:10 PM   #33
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

"A space faring benevolent species that travels around the universe looking for life to help out"
-------
A good look at history shows that there is only one "benevolent species" worried about of survival of other species.

Man has made some efforts in this area with conservation, but we have also proven to be the planets most dangerous and destructive animal.

I sense a level here and we are going off track but you have to consider we may not be alone in the universe. An encounter may not be the "happily ever after" for all involved. It may be something that is totally unexpected that usually creates the most issues.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:59 PM   #34
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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They weren't primitive. They had vast skill sets allowing them to exploit whichever region they were in.

Aztec cities were bigger and more fabulous than the cities of the Spanish who visited them.

Turn Prophet does have a point, the lack of draft animals did point their development in directions that weren't always noticed by or impressive to Europeans.

The word "primitive" does not hold up well as an analytical category. "Non-literate" or "non-industrial" work better, because they do not start out with the assumption of one society being more accomplished than another.

Take some English loom tenders from 1790, and Sioux from the plains and run a battery of tests.The Sioux will have more accumulated knowledge than the other. You could train Sioux to stand at a machine a lot easier than you could turn a mill tender into a Sioux. So what makes a group primitive?
what is the bar of accomplishment for a society? is it existing? in that case score one point for western society (as the sioux civilization no longer exists). is it population size? in that case western society is the clear winner over indigenous peoples (with Asian societies currently in the lead, ldo). is it development of technology that shapes/changes/becomes essential to the human experience? in that case, another win for western society.

I can understand your obvious admiration for native americans and the things they accomplished, but let's try to refrain from handicapping or tilting the playing field in order to make indigenous peoples seem more important to the course of history and the modern age than they were.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:20 PM   #35
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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bolded is in error. Engagement throughout the process of what might otherwise be called genocide was almost exclusively at the behest of the "Americans." They did not stand up to anything from the "Indians."

The durability of culture is subject purely to knowledge of the world and the ability to adapt over time. The roughest, toughest cultures are still subject to decline.

The sophistication of the culture is what I believe excludes it from being labelled "primative" as suggested in the OP. And, also, the last time I checked there was still a pretty healthy Native American population in the U.S. So one might say the culture still thrives.
The bolded is not entirely accurate. Andrew Jackson's brutal campaign against the Creek people of the Southeast U.S. was precipitated by a Creek attack on an american settlement fort in which the natives slaughtered hundreds of civilians (almost exclusively women and young children) while the soldiers were away. This resulted in the virtual destruction of the Creek people by a combined force of Cherokee and Jackson's militia.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:49 PM   #36
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

OP hoped for an answer that would go like "cuz they're not white'
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:11 PM   #37
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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The bolded is not entirely accurate. Andrew Jackson's brutal campaign against the Creek people of the Southeast U.S. was precipitated by a Creek attack on an american settlement fort in which the natives slaughtered hundreds of civilians (almost exclusively women and young children) while the soldiers were away. This resulted in the virtual destruction of the Creek people by a combined force of Cherokee and Jackson's militia.
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The Fort Mims massacre occurred on 30 August 1813 during the Creek War, when a force of Creek people, belonging to the "Red Sticks" faction under the command of Peter McQueen and William Weatherford ("Red Eagle"), his cousin by marriage, killed hundreds of Lower Creek, white settlers, and militia at Fort Mims. The fort was a stockade with a blockhouse surrounding the house and outbuildings of the settler Samuel Mims, located about 35 miles north of present-day Mobile, Alabama.
source I don't think this attack was a precipitation in any way. The Creek War, or Creek Civil War, section on wikipedia is pretty good. The attacks from white settlers and their government were just gonna happen regardless of all of this imo.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:33 AM   #38
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

Hear me, people: We have now to deal with another race, small and feeble when are fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules that the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.-- Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference in 1877.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:21 PM   #39
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

higher average temparature leads to lower average IQ. that is a fact.
scandinavians are the smartest on average and hotter areas have lower IQ's.

anyway, i think the life of an old-school native-american was more enjoyable than life in a more "sophisticated" modern way, since they, for example, live in peace with nature.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:44 PM   #40
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higher average temparature leads to lower average IQ. that is a fact.
scandinavians are the smartest on average and hotter areas have lower IQ's.

anyway, i think the life of an old-school native-american was more enjoyable than life in a more "sophisticated" modern way, since they, for example, live in peace with nature.
The above is a trollish statement. The Aztecs and Mayans were located in warmer regions than the Nords -- as were the Greeks and Egyptians. Their civilizations were more developed than the Nordic tribes.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:50 PM   #41
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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higher average temparature leads to lower average IQ. that is a fact.
No it's not. It's not anything like a "fact," and has no historical validity behind it. If Scandinavians have always had a higher IQ than other peoples, why did Scandinavia lag so far behind warmer-climate cultures like Persia, Greece, Rome, Arabia, Egypt, India, China, and Mesoamerica for most of the last 15 millennia? Seems like it should be an overwhelming advantage.

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The above is a trollish statement.
I'd almost take out the "ish" part.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:13 PM   #42
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

evolution is not linear (or parallel to an other), if requirements differ (IQ, avaible food, temperature etc.)
very old cultures in scandinavia might have already had a higher avg IQ,
but due to the lower temperatur it was a lot harder to get the evolution to a certain point, where basics are save (food, warm place etc.)
what i want to say is that warmer regions were able to reach their maximum of evolution way quicker, since all facors beside average intelligence (IQ) were favourable for them. but after evolution got further and further, the hotter areas were left behind to some point, and the colder areas started to profit from their intelligence.

and since you called me troll(-ish), id like to add that its pretty obv, if you think about it .
and if you google my trollish statement, you will see the hot/cold avg. IQ-thing is true.
of course it might have to do with poverty in hot areas nowadays, but that doesnt change the fact at all,
its just under another light.

sorry for my bad english skills, its not my native language.
btw, i am neither scandinavian nor nazi.

Last edited by HU4holes; 05-30-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:12 PM   #43
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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of course it might have to do with poverty in hot areas nowadays, but that doesnt change the fact at all,
its just under another light.
It changes that "fact" tremendously, since we're talking about long-term historical trends. If the relative impoverishment of "warmer" nations is a factor in contemporary IQ, how can you say with any kind of certainty that it should apply to the past, when "warmer" cultures were considerably more technologically developed? Geography is likely at play here, but not because of any effect it has on IQ. Even a cursory bit of research on IQ will show that (1) it's a terrible predictor of a lot of things, and (2) there is far more variation within a given population than across populations with regard to IQ scores. You might not be a racist, but this is precisely the type of nonsense peddled by early 20th-century racists that has no grounding in empirical fact. It's simply latter-day phrenology.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:28 PM   #44
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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It changes that "fact" tremendously, since we're talking about long-term historical trends. If the relative impoverishment of "warmer" nations is a factor in contemporary IQ, how can you say with any kind of certainty that it should apply to the past, when "warmer" cultures were considerably more technologically developed? .
well, certainty and historie...
why dont you tell me one logic reason why this should be a modern phenomenon, a reason why it should not have been like that all the time?

or why did they loose their edge in evolution to others?
(not that i think the technological edge is actually a positive thing at all, i just call it an edge, since the majority of people do that, and i think that evolution already backfires and kills our happyness with modern way of western life)

they were more developed because they had fresh food, like vegetables/fruits avaible and many animals that they could easily hunt. why is saudi-arabis rich? they have oil.
that is why. they had the more favourable circumstances.... under those conditions the less intelligent will develope quicker.

can you follow me now?

i dont get why you asked me that, since i already described that in my last post:

"very old cultures in scandinavia might have already had a higher avg IQ,
but due to the lower temperatur it was a lot harder to get the evolution to a certain point, where basics are save (food, warm place etc.)
what i want to say is that warmer regions were able to reach their maximum of evolution way quicker, since all facors beside average intelligence (IQ) were favourable for them. but after evolution got further and further, the hotter areas were left behind to some point, and the colder areas started to profit from their intelligence."

Last edited by HU4holes; 05-30-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:17 AM   #45
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Re: Why were native americans/australians so primitive?

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The above is a trollish statement. The Aztecs and Mayans were located in warmer regions than the Nords -- as were the Greeks and Egyptians. Their civilizations were more developed than the Nordic tribes.
The bolded parts of this post disappoint, as they fail pretty hard (which is in sharp contrast to what I have come to expect from your posts in my short time in this subforum). The Aztec and Mayan civilizations were most certainly not more developed than the Nords, and for about the last decade I have been continually baffled, mortified, and pissed off at the extent to which new-age academia reveres pre-colombian cultures while making them out to be some highly-advanced, trend-setting world beaters who were supposedly ahead of their Eurasion and Middle-Eastern contemporaries in almost every aspect and yet somehow failed to survive into the present day in any meaningful sense.
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