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The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate

04-18-2012 , 11:16 PM
Present your reasons, (pros or cons or neutral or don't know) and analysis etc for the use of the Atomic bombs on Japan in August of 1945 by the United States (Little Boy was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945, followed by the Fat Man bomb over Nagasaki on 9 August). I thought it best to start this thread (some posts on this in another thread so this will also prevent a derail) as it should be a good discussion of military history and the decision making processes that culminated in these historic events.

As a reminder these events occurred at a crux in world history. Germany had surrendered in May of 1945 and the (mainly) Americans were continuing to battle Japan in the pacific, and a whole host of factors and the thinking of military and political figures of the day figure into the equation of whether to drop the Atomic Bombs. Our views of today are probably skewed and bias, just as the views of those in WWII were also skewed and bias, but in a different way than our own. Also keep in mind that any decisions/ justifications for actions in wartime are fraught with difficulty, the unknown, and the unknowable, and on the frailty of human judgment.

For purposes of generating a worthwhile discussion keep in mind not just the immediate timeline of the bombings themselves, but of the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, the overall military stratgety for forcing Japan into surrender, including bombing and blockade campagins, the Japanese defenesive strategy for their homeland, and the complete history of the Asian theater of war in WWII (remember that Japan invaded China in July,1937).

There were key players on both sides including United States Secretary of War Henry Lewis Stimson, Chief of staff General Marshall, and host of other generals and military advisors both Japanese and American. I will shun making posts myself unless I can add something that I think may be missing from the discussion.

I would add that many years ago there were two very good discussions on this very subject in the politics forum. I think at least 4-5 years ago - possibly more, in which David Sklansky also participated. If someone wishes to comb the 2+2 achieves and find them that may prove useful and enlighening.

Be lively and engaging, use the best facts and evidence available and also be civil in debate. Thanks.

Last edited by Zeno; 04-18-2012 at 11:23 PM.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-18-2012 , 11:55 PM
Here's one discussion where Andy Fox was prominent, no Sklansky though.
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-19-2012 , 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukoncpa
Here's one discussion where Andy Fox was prominent, no Sklansky though.
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

Here is another thread with Andy Fox, an excellent poster that I should have mentioned also.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...PHPSESSID=/url


^
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-19-2012 , 12:22 AM
Drop the bomb - It took two to convince them to surrender - or risk 100,000 American casualties in an invasion of the mainland that could have added two years to the war.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-19-2012 , 02:20 AM
Too lazy to link, but the most recent episode of Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast (is this what prompted this thread Zeno?) is a must listen on this topic.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-19-2012 , 02:32 AM
The point I'd start with (via the aforementioned podcast) is that the atomic bombs were not really any worse than other strategic bombing operations e.g. the firebombing of Tokyo and the bombing of German cities (and the bombing of London). The two main questions to me are how far can you go as an air-force or a military engaged in total war to 'end wars faster' and how many 'enemy' civilians is it ok to kill to save the life of an allied soldier?

In theory, the quickest way to win a war would be to obliterate every square inch of enemy territory, but most people probably think this calculation is too extreme: the probability of total victory is close to 1 but the cost of victory is incredibly high. Say bombing 'strategic' targets gives you a .75 probability of total victory but the cost is significantly less, even factoring in losses to your ground forces.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-19-2012 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrk
Too lazy to link, but the most recent episode of Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast (is this what prompted this thread Zeno?) is a must listen on this topic.
Agree with this hugely. Given the range of alternatives out there, it does seem hard to say that the nuclear bombings were less moral than massively destructive and brutal incendiary bombing campaigns. So the question is really whether any kind of sustained bombing campaign and/or invasion was necessary. Is it plausible to believe Japan might have surrendered anyway? Given the documents that have been unearthed and analyzed in the last 30 years, I think it is plausible to say yes.

1. Japan had no naval capability by July 1945 and a rapidly-declining industrial capacity.
2. Japan's leaders had been trying to negotiate a peace settlement brokered by the USSR that might be more favorable than the terms demanded by the US vis-a-vis the Potsdam Conference.
3. In concert with (2), the American demand for an unconditional surrender might have actually held up the peace discussions. Whether this was a desirable goal is further debatable.
4. Also in concert with (2), the USSR's invasion of Manchuria ended any hope of a Soviet-brokered peace.

Knowing (4), the US faced tremendous pressure to get Japan to accede to a peace agreement on American terms, to ensure Japan would be within the American sphere of influence when conflict with the Soviet Union inevitably occurred. This, more than any other factor in my opinion, led to the decision to drop "the bomb." That at least covers the Hiroshima bombing, but as to why the US only waited 3 days before dropping the second nuke is another matter, and points to more cynical motives IMO, or even sick scientific curiosity (since the Hiroshima bomb had a uranium core, whereas the Nagasaki bomb had a plutonium core). The "official" rationale of saving American soldiers and Japanese civilians does not seem to square with the immense campaign to capture Okinawa or the sustained firebombing of Tokyo for years. It might have been a side effect, and maybe even a positive twist, but I really doubt it was the primary rationale.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-20-2012 , 12:31 AM
Turn Prophet posted another insightful post that I would like to expand on.

In 1945, advocates for peace persuaded the emperor to appoint Suzuki Kantaro to Prime Minister. Kantaro's appointment was a plea for peace as Kantaro was used as the figurehead of the peace cabinet. A letter was drafted to the Russian government asking that they mediate end-war terms between the U.S and Japan. However, the letter was to be in vain, as the U.S, England, and Russia were already holding talks among themselves, and were pessimistic of Japanese peacemaking intentions.

This can partially be attributed to the political instability that was the Japanese conflict between the military and the government, and partially due to President Truman's lack of desire to show any mercy to the Japanese. At this point the Atomic Bomb had already been developed and tested, and Truman knew militarily there was no way the U.S would lose the war. Pride ran deep on both sides of the conflict. The Japanese military refused to give up what they'd won thus far in battle, and the U.S refused to end the war and let them keep it. If there is any argument against the dropping of the Atomic bomb it was the the US could have allowed Japan the opportunity to keep they what they'd won thus far in battle, and ended the war without dropping the bomb. This may not have been the best course of action because Japan may have rebuilt there army like Germany did after WWI.

The U.S wanted an unconditional surrender, period. The Potsdam Declaration, a set of terms drafted in Germany by the U.S, England, and Russia, was proposed to the Japanese and was evidence that the U.S was now unwilling to except any negotiations.

Japan was torn. Suzuki feared the American government and the threats of mass destruction should the Potsdam Declaration be denied. The military refused to back down and make meaningless all the lives lost in the war. Those lives were important memorials of the suffering that Japan had to endure in order to gain the spoils they now possessed. Already, the U.S had cut off some of those spoils, and unconditional surrender only meant dishonor to their country and the men who died for it.

On the American side, Truman concerned himself with a quick end to the war. Later other reasons would be cited, such as an end to a war that was claiming far too many American lives. However, it is commonly noted that Truman had the A-bomb and was merely all too ready to use it. Truman is quoted as saying, "I regarded the bomb as a military weapon and never had any doubt that it should be used." Further more, Truman wrote in his diary on July 25, 1945, "This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital or the new. He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives."

Was the atomic bomb truly the answer? The Japanese were devastated before the A-bombs were ever dropped. Despite maintained military resistance, the Japanese were on a downward spiral. U.S bombings were devastating cities across Japan, and the U.S were already making their way into the country. Keeping all this in mind, it can only be noted that it was a matter of time before Japanese defeat would have occurred. It seems in this situation, Truman eager to use his prized weapon and it was not as taboo as it is today.

Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast which several posters already mentions talked about the merits and morality of bombing non-miltary targets. I think if in the context of the time of WWII, if it was ok to "fire bomb" cities, it was in play to use the Atomic Bomb as well. Today? I think it's taboo to use as a weapon and is really a deterrent for the US. That does not mean some other nation will not use an Atomic bomb offensively in the future hopefully long after we are gone.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-20-2012 , 01:22 AM
Since this is 2+2, thought that Harry Truman's comment about the Bomb in a letter to his wife of July 31, 1945 might be particularly relevant:

"He [Stalin] doesn't know it but I have an ace in the hole and another one showing - so unless he has threes or two pair (and I know he has not) we are sitting all right."
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
04-21-2012 , 03:15 AM
This is my take on the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I've never written it out quite like this. So if this is totally off base let me know....

It is very likely the Soviet invasion of Manchuria played a huge factor in the Japanese decision to surrender to the US. The atomic bombing of Hiroshima, occurred on August 6. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria commenced at 12:00 AM on August 9. The Bomb was dropped on Nagasaki about 11 hours later.

3 days later, Japan had suffered its greatest military land defeat in its history. It took the Soviets 3 days to defeat the Japanese military in a area stretching from the Soviet boarder through North Korea. The Japanese army could not withstand the punishment from the Soviets. On August, 15 Emperor Hirohito told the Japanese people they had surrendered.

Hirohito was faced with an easy decision. Get slaughtered by the approaching Soviets or surrender to the Americans. The dropping of the bombs gave Japan an easy way out. The Japanese now could surrender to anyone but the brutal Soviets. Without the Atomic bombs it would have been near impossible for Japan to surrender to the US. It likely would have only been a short period of time before Japan was invaded by the approaching Soviets, that had already crushed much of the Japanese army in Manchuria. It's very likely the American Army would have never gotten the chance to invade mainland Japan.

Many American historians claim the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved many, many American lives. My feeling is it likely saved more Soviet and Japanese lives then American lives.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-18-2012 , 12:57 PM
I think dropping it saved a lot of Japanese lives too though I can't make up my mind on whether or not dropping it was legit. Most likely it wasn't legit because it's not legit under the Geneva Convention today to make war on non-combatants but at that time that rule to protect non-combatants wasn't formulated. It was formulated in 1949 and most likely the massive civilan deaths and city firebombings incurred worldwide in WWII helped inspire the new Fourth Geneva Convention.

Wiki on the Geneva Convention:
First Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field, 1864
Second Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, 1906
Third Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 1929
Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 1949

The whole set is referred to as the "Geneva Conventions of 1949" or simply the "Geneva Convention".

Wiki specifically on the Fourth Geneva Convention:

The Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, commonly referred to as the Fourth Geneva Convention and abbreviated as GCIV, is one of the four treaties of the Geneva Conventions. It was adopted in August 1949, and defines humanitarian protections for civilians in a war zone, and outlaws the practice of total war. There are currently 194 countries party to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, including this fourth treaty but also including the other three.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-19-2012 , 10:14 PM
An excerpt from Howard Zinn's "Postwar America 1945-1971" pg. 7-20‏ on Hiroshima. (An excellent book imo that anyone who enjoys studying American history should read. Also afaict everything in this passage is consistent with Turn Prophet's post):

All wars of the United States were not splendid crusades, perhaps; Americans admit doubts about the Mexican War, the Spanish-American War, and even World War 1. But not about World War 2; it was the third of America's unquestionably virtuous wars.

Even Hiroshima did not succeed in breaking the spell of righteousness. Indeed, in a strange way, it made the spell more durable. For those who were appalled that Americans had aimed a terrifyingly destructive new weapon at the entire population of a city, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was explained as something that was quite different from all the other bombs dropped by the good Allies. The event itself was treated as brand new, and an abrupt departure from ordinary devastations--as if it were not a technical extension of the fire-bombings of Tokyo, in which 80,000 were killed, and Dresden, in which 125,000 were killed; as if it were not a logical extension of the cruelty of the whole war.

Hiroshima was, despite all the earnest self-searching after the fact, the final affirmation of the ability of the best of civilizations--that of liberal, rational, enlightened Judeo-Christian society--to commit the worst of war's acts. After Hiroshima, every atrocity short of nuclear death could be accepted as ordinary. And nuclear war itself could be envisioned for extraordinary situations. On August 6, 1970, the twenty-fifth anniversary of Hiroshima, American planes, after dropping three million tons of bombs on Vietnam--more than had been dropped on Germany and Japan in World War 2--were still flying over Vietnamese rice fields and destroying peasant villages. Israelis and Egyptians were still dropping bombs on each other. Russians and Americans were still increasing their stockpiles of atomic weapons, which now equaled about fifty tons of TNT for each inhabitant of the earth.

What Hiroshima showed was that, even if Hitler was at the moment ashes, even if the corpse of Benito Mussolini had dangled upside down in front of a Milan gas station, even if plans were being made to execute Japanese generals and admirals one by one, the only possible result that could justify the death of fifty million people had not been achieved; a change in the minds of men or in the institutions that set those minds. The basic premises of a world that had given birth to fascism--the notion of "superior" beings having the right of life and death over "inferior" beings, the idea that the victory of one nation over another in war is important enough to justify any unspeakable act--were affirmed in the Hiroshima bombing.

The debate itself over the bombing proved a point. Could any truly civilized nation debate gas chambers for Jews or slavery for blacks? Would it matter who won the debate? The concession that these were debatable was enough. And after Hiroshima, the use of atomic bombs was debatable, the extermination of villages and cities debatable, modern wars of annihilation debatable.

In this sense, Hitler won the Second World War in the same way the South won the Civil War: the signs and symbols were surrendered--the swastika in the one case, slavery in the other--but the evils they represented remained. The most extreme positions were yielded to enable a retreat to secondary positions, where the fundamental malevolence--nationalism and war for Hitler; racism for the Confederacy--could be kept alive in more acceptable form. Or, to put it another way, despite important differences in style, in rhetoric, in the degree of cruelty--the extermination of Jews in death camps versus the incineration of Japanese and German civilians--neither side represented a clear break from the idea that war itself is an acceptable means of solving disputes over political power.

The defensive arguments for the atomic bombings of Japan are therefore more important than mere historical facts; they anticipate the whole postwar rationale for preparing for nuclear war, and the justification for the most devastating non-nuclear wars. (In Korea, more than two million were killed in a "conventional" war.) The arguments illustrate a larger question; the extent to which the behavior and thinking of the United States, as one of the victors in World War 2, epitomized certain qualities that were to bring about a national crisis in postwar America.

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima turned into powder and ashes the bones and flesh of 100,000 to 150,000 (no one is yet sure) Japanese men, women, and children--in a few minutes. It left tens of thousands blinded, maimed, and poisoned by radiation, either to die soon after the explosion or to live on as its relics. The bomb dropped on Nagasaki three days later killed between 35,000 and 75,000 (here, too, no one knows exactly).

Harry Truman took office in April, 1945--four months before Hiroshima--following the sudden death of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He was then told, by Secretary of War Henry Stimson, about the Manhattan Project for the development of the atomic bomb in New Mexico. In his Memoirs Truman justified the dropping of the bomb, and one of his points was that an advisory committee appointed by him had carefully considered the question and approved the dropping of the bombs on populated cities. This was the Interim Committee headed by Stimson; it included Secretary of state James Byrnes, three scientists, and three other civilian officials. "It was their recommendation," Truman said, "that the bomb be used against the enemy as soon as it could be done. They recommended further that it should be used without specific warning and against a target that would clearly show its devastating strength. I had realized of course that an atomic bomb explosion would inflict damage and casualties beyond imagination. On the other hand, the scientific advisers of the committee reported: '...we see no acceptable alternative.'" Truman said that "the top military advisers to the President recommended its use, and when I talked to Churchill, he unhesitatingly told me that he favored the use of the atomic bomb if it might aid to end the war."

The decision apparatus on the dropping of the atomic bomb was a perfect example of that dispersed responsibility so characteristic of modern bureaucracy, where an infinite chain of policy-makers, committees, advisers, and administrators make it impossible to determine who is accountable. By comparison, the sly double action of the Inquisition--the church holding the trial, the state carrying out the execution--was primitive. Truman created the impression that expert advisers gave him no choice; the experts--Stimson's Interim Committee--claimed in turn that they depended on the advice of even greater experts, the four scientists on the Scientific Panel: J. Robert Oppenheimer, Arthur Compton, Enrico Fermi, and Ernest Lawrence.

The four scientists, it turned out later, did not know certain important facts: that the Japanese were negotiating for surrender through the Russians; that the invasion of Japan, which had been projected before the appearance of the bomb, was not scheduled until November; and that the Japanese were militarily close to total defeat. Oppenheimer, testifying after the war before the Atomic Energy Commission, said: "We didn't know beans about the military situation in Japan. We didn't know whether they could be caused to surrender by other means or whether the invasion was really inevitable. But in the back of our minds was the notion that the invasion was inevitable because we had been told that." Yet, the Scientific Panel told the Interim Committee: "We see no acceptable alternative to direct military use."

Early in July Leo Szilard, who had helped persuade Roosevelt to start the atomic-bomb project, circulated a petition among his fellow atomic scientists, which sixty-seven signed, including Ralph Lapp, asking Truman to withhold dropping the bomb while other steps were taken to induce the Japanese to surrender. According to Compton, the Scientific Panel, at the request of Brigadier General Leslie Groves of the Manhattan Project, then took a secret poll among scientists at the Metallurgical Laboratory in Chicago, which had helped make the bomb. Compton, in an article published three years later, wrote of the poll: "There were a few who preferred not to use the bomb at all, but 87 per cent voted for its military use, at least if after other means were tried this was found necessary to bring surrender." But it was precisely these "other means" that were not brought forth as alternatives by the Scientific Panel. The exact figures on the poll given in Compton's article show that only 15 per cent of the 150 scientists surveyed were for full use of the bomb as dictated by military strategy. Forty-six per cent were for demonstrating the bomb in Japan in such a way as to give the Japanese a chance to surrender "before full use of the weapons," and 26 per cent were for a demonstration in the United States, with Japanese representation present.

The key to Compton's interpretation of the polls is in what he said several years after his 1948 article:
One of the young men who had been with us at Chicago and had transferred to Los Alamos came into my Chicago office in a state of emotional stress. He said he had heard of an effort to prevent the use of the bomb. Two years earlier I had persuaded this young man, as he was graduating with a major in physics, to cast his lot with our project. The chances are, I had told him, that you will be able to contribute more toward winning the war in this position than if you should accept the call to the Navy that you are considering. He had heeded my advice. Now he was sorely troubled. "I have buddies who have fought through the battle of Iwo Jima. Some of them have been killed, others wounded. We've got to give these men the best weapons we can produce." Tears came to his eyes. "If one of these men should be killed because we didn't let them use the bombs, I would have failed them. I just could not make myself feel that I had done my part." Others, though less emotional, felt just as deeply.
Behind the polls, behind the panels, behind the committees, behind the advisers and the interpretations of advice, behind the decision-makers, a persistent basic belief seemed to quash all doubt about using the bomb. This view is summed up by Compton's young friend: "If one of these men should be killed," the failure to drop the bomb would be damnable. Tears at the thought of even one American death. But what of the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands of Japanese victims of the bomb?

The dispersion of responsibility for evil, Hiroshima proved, is as insidious in a liberal, capitalist state as in a socialist state or a Fascist state. The proliferation of advisers, committees, and polls on the use of the atomic bomb allowed for enough participants so that the entire procedure might deserve the honor of being termed "democratic." But not all the participants were equals; as the Scientific Panel's ignorance of military matters demonstrates, not all had equal access to information, which is fundamental to real democracy. Further, the liberal state in modern times, like the socialist or Fascist state, is limited in its thinking by national borders; its "democracy" excludes, without a thought, those outside its boundaries. There was no sounding of Japanese opinion on the question of the bomb; indeed, the question sounds absurd in the self-oriented atmosphere created by the nation-state. It seems absurd not just because America and Japan were at war--it would seem just as absurd to suggest that the Greeks should be polled before making a policy decision on whether or not to recognize the Papadopoulos military junta--but because the national limits of democracy are ingrained in our thinking.

Hiroshima showed us that the broad spread of participation in decisions, which presumably marks a "democratic" country like the United States, is also deceptive. Not only did some of the participants have access to information that others did not, some people in the configuration had immeasurably more power than others. Scientists who opposed the dropping of the bomb, like Szilard, who with Fermi had supervised the first controlled atomic chain reaction at the University of Chicago, did not have as powerful a voice as Groves, an army engineer who built the Pentagon and was in charge of building the bomb. The Szilard petition to the president never reached Truman; it was kept for two weeks by Groves. That Szilard's statement and those of others against the immediate use of the bomb were held up by Groves and his staff did not become known until 1963, when the files of the Manhattan Project were opened.

The petition was a forecast of the postwar atomic race:
The development of atomic power will provide the nation with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of their future development. Thus a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for the purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.

If after this war, a situation is allowed to develop in the world which permits rival powers to be in uncontrolled possession of these new means of destruction, the cities of the United States as well as the cities of other nations will be in continuous danger of sudden annihilation. All the resources of the United States, moral and material, may have to be mobilized to prevent the advent of such a world situation. Its prevention is at present the solemn responsibility of the United States--singled out by virtue of her lead in the field of atomic power....
Hiroshima pulled all the elements of America's decision-making process--including notions of right and wrong, nationalism, polling, secrecy, and absence of information--toward indiscriminate violence for national goals, without any conscious conspiracy or, evil intent by individual leaders. As Groves said, after the war, it was not a matter of Truman's making the decision to drop the bomb, but rather of his not altering a decision already made, or keeping a commitment hardened by the expenditure of money and men over years. Groves, who pictured Truman as "a little boy on a toboggan," said of the president's action: "As far as I was concerned, his decision was one of non-interference--basically, a decision not to upset the existing plans...As time went on, and as we poured more and more money and effort into the project, the government became increasingly committed to the ultimate use of the bomb...."

It was not that Americans at this point in their history lacked humanitarian feelings. They did not. That is why they needed explanations that showed lives were saved by dropping the bomb. But because the humanitarianism was vague, while the urge to national power was sharp, the explanations needed only to be made by national leaders in order to be accepted without question or scrutiny. Thus Truman could talk in his Memoirs of General George C. Marshall telling him "it might cost half a million American lives to force the enemy's surrender on his home grounds." (Marshall's opposition to using the bomb without warning was not known until the Manhattan Project papers were unlocked; they disclosed that at a meeting in Stimson's office May 29, 1945, Marshall had urged that the Japanese be advised about the bomb's targets so people could be removed and only military installations obliterated.) Similarly, Byrnes could say that he had passed on to Truman the estimate of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that "our invasion would cost us a million casualties." The president, Byrnes said, then "expressed the opinion that, regrettable as it might be, so far as he could see, the only reasonable conclusion was to use the bomb."

That this was not "the only reasonable conclusion" is evident on the basis of only one additional fact, which Truman knew at the time he made the decision on the bomb. He knew that the first invasion of Japan would be on the island of Kyushu, that American casualties there were expected to be about 31,000, and that the Kyushu assault was not scheduled until November--allowing three months for the wobbling nation to surrender. Japan was already beginning to press for peace through her emissary in Moscow, as Truman and the American high command also knew through the interception of Japanese cables. There was, therefore, no immediate need to use the bomb to save lives. Hanson Baldwin summarized the situation as follows:
The atomic bomb was dropped in August. Long before that month started our forces were securely based in Okinawa, the Marianas and Iwo Jima; Germany had been defeated; our fleet had been cruising off the Japanese coast with impunity bombarding Japan; even inter-island ferries had been attacked and sunk. Bombing, which started slowly in June, 1944, from China bases and from the Marianas in November, 1944, had been increased materially in 1945, and by August, 1945, more than 16,000 tons of bombs had ravaged Japanese cities. Food was short; mines and submarines and surface vessels and planes clamped an iron blockade around the main islands; raw materials were scarce. Blockade, bombing, and unsuccessful attempts at dispersion had reduced Japanese production capacity from 20 to 60 per cent. The enemy, in a military sense, was in a hopeless strategic position by the time the Potsdam demand for unconditional surrender was made on July 26.

Such, then, was the situation when we wiped out Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Need we have done it? No one can, of course, be positive, but the answer is almost certainly negative.
Confirmation of the argument against the Truman-Byrnes "only reasonable conclusion" thesis was supplied by an official government committee, the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, established by Stimson in 1944 to study the results of the aerial attacks on Germany. After Japan surrendered, the survey committee interviewed hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders on many matters, including the effects of the atomic bombing. Its report concludes:
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.
Truman's and Byrnes's talk of saving lives in the future by destroying lives in the present has been the supreme defense of the mass killing in modern war. As "humanitarian" rationale, it has been the most persuasive justification for the American depredations not only in World War 2 but in Korea and Vietnam. It is a rationale epitomized best by that quintessential liberal Woodrow Wilson when he described World War 1, which cost ten million lives on the battlefield, as a war to "bring peace and safety to all nations." In the 1950s the destruction of Korea and its people was justified by vague speculation about preventing some possible conflagration in the future. In the 1960s the continued American bombing of Indochina, with a million casualties, and millions more driven from their hamlets, was justified by Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon as necessary to prevent a larger war.

Truman's other reason for dropping the bomb--that Hiroshima was a military base--is even more untenable than his talk of saving "half a million" American lives or Byrnes's talk of preventing "a million casualties." On August 9, the day on which the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki and the Japanese were warned to surrender or be destroyed, Truman declared: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians." In the face of the enormous toll of civilian life in the bombing of Hiroshima, Truman's statement might seem to be one of the most mendacious uttered by any political leader in modern times. Not only were tens of thousands of civilians killed in this "military" bombing, but the official report of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey said that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population."

Truman's statement, however, had to be made because of an important political fact: the American population needed such reassurance, and it depended for its information on the president and other government leaders. It is one of the ironies of modern "democracy" that the public, which is supposed to weigh the claims of its leaders, depends on its leaders for its information. In the Vietnam War, American political leaders continued to speak to the public, with considerable success, about bombing only military targets with only occasional, accidental failures resulting in civilian casualties. Among themselves, military men spoke more frankly, as one naval officer did in a Naval Review article in 1969:
One naturally wonders why so many bombing sorties are required in order to destroy a bridge or other pinpoint target....However, with even the most sophisticated computer system, bombing by any mode remains an inherently inaccurate process, as is evident from our results to date in Vietnam. Aiming errors, boresight errors, system computational errors and bomb dispersion errors all act to degrade the accuracy of the system. Unknown winds at altitudes below the release point and the "combat degradation" factor add more errors to the process. In short, it is impossible to hit a small target with bombs except by sheer luck. Bombing has proved most efficient for area targets such as supply dumps, build-up areas, and cities. (My emphasis)
Hiroshima was not an unfortunate error in an otherwise glorious war. It revealed, in concentrated form, characteristics that the United States had in common with the other belligerents--whatever their political nomenclature. The first of these is the commission and easy justification of indiscriminate violence when it serves political aims. The second is the translation of the system's basic power motives into whatever catchall ideology can mobilize the population--"socialism" for socialist states, "democracy" for capitalist states, "the master race" for Fascist states. The common denominator for all has been the survival of the system of power--whether socialist, Fascist, or capitalist. What dominated the motives for war among all the belligerents were political ends--power, privilege, expansion--rather than human ends--life, liberty, the pursuit of individual and social happiness.

This is not to deny that political ends--power, the survival and growth of particular social systems--have human consequences, and that the survival of certain social systems may be highly desirable in human terms. But the overlapping of political and human ends has been, so far, a matter of chance. And the reason why it has been a matter of chance is because no society in the world, including the American, has as yet reached the point where its political leaders are subject to the informed power of the people whose interests they claim to represent. As a result, the decisions of the leadership are motivated primarily by the aggrandizement of its own power and wealth, with token payments made in behalf of human rights when necessary to maintain control, and violations committed against such rights when they conflict with national political power.

The motivation behind dropping the bomb on Hiroshima, despite the death and suffering of the Japanese, and despite the consequences for the world of that atomic terror forecast by the Szilard petition, was political; the "humanitarian" aspect of the decision to drop the bomb is dubious. That political motive was to keep the Russians out of the Pacific war so that the United States would play the primary role in the peace settlement in Asia. The circumstantial evidence for this conclusion, Truman and Byrnes notwithstanding, is that the strictly military need to end the war did not require such instant use of the bomb. Admiral William Leahy, Truman's chief of staff; General Henry Arnold, commanding general of the air force; General Carl Spaatz, commander of the Strategic Air Force; as well as General Douglas MacArthur, commander of the Pacific theater; and General Eisenhower, did not think use of the bomb was necessary.

The political motive was first pointed out by the British scientist P.M.S. Blackett in his book Fear, War, and the Bomb. Blackett wondered about the rush to drop the bombs, and concluded that it was to beat the Russian entrance into the war against Japan, which was scheduled for August 8. The Russians had promised at Yalta and Potsdam to attack Japan three months after victory in Europe, which was May 8. Blackett says: "One can imagine the hurry with which the two bombs--the only two existing--were whisked across the Pacific to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki just in time, but only just, to insure that the Japanese Government surrendered to American forces alone." Blackett points to an article by Norman Cousins and Thomas K. Finletter, in the Saturday Review of Literature, June 15, 1946, in which they ask why the United States did not first warn the Japanese by a demonstration of the atomic bomb. According to Cousins and Finletter, a demonstration would have taken some preparation, and there was no time for making such arrangements before the Russian invasion:
No; any test would have been impossible if the purpose was to knock Japan out before Russia came in....

It may be argued that this decision was justified; that it was a legitimate exercise of power politics in a rough-and-tumble world, that we thereby avoided a struggle for authority in Japan similar to what we have experienced in Germany and Italy, that unless we came out of the war with a decisive balance of power over Russia, we would be in no position to checkmate Russian expansion.
Blackett adds:
The hurried dropping of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a brilliant success, in that all the political objectives were fully achieved. American control of Japan is complete, and there is no struggle for authority there with Russia....So we may conclude that the dropping of the atomic bombs was not so much the last military act of the second World War, as the first major operation of the cold diplomatic war with Russia now in progress.
Blackett's conclusion is supported by Gar Alperovitz's meticulous research of the Stimson papers and related documents. Alperovitz points out that at Potsdam Winston Churchill told his secretary of state for foreign affairs, Anthony Eden, that "it is quite clear that the United States do not at the present time desire Russian participation in the war." Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal, in his diary entry for July 28, 1945, said Secretary of State Byrnes "was most anxious to get the Japanese affair over with before the Russians got in." Byrne's own memoir, Speaking Frankly, is full of frankness: "As for myself, I must frankly admit that in view of what we knew of Soviet actions in eastern Germany and the violations of the Yalta agreement in Poland, Rumania, and Bulgaria, I would have been satisfied had the Russians determined not to enter he war." He then adds a much franker statement: that at the January, 1945, Yalta Conference the United States agreed on Russian entrance into the war because then "the military situation had been entirely different"; now with Japan near defeat and with the United States in possession of a brand-new deadly weapon, there was no reason to give Russia the added psychological and physical power in Asia that a major share in defeating Japan would afford.

What Hiroshima suggests is not that a liberal, humane society can make a mistake and commit mass murder for political ends, but that it is characteristic for modern societies to do so. The evidence for this harsh conclusion is in the explanations for the atomic bombings, advanced by the government and generally accepted by the American public, and it is reinforced by the behavior of the United States prior to and after Hiroshima. Granted that Hitlerism was a monstrous evil, were the attitudes toward human life demonstrated by the Allies during the war, and perpetuated after the war, such as to make the difference between theirs and Hitler's worth fifty million corpses?

In World War 2 the two nations credited with being the most enlightened, liberal, democratic, and humane--the United States and England--agreed on the efficacy of saturation bombing of the German civilian population. As early as 1942 the British Bomber Command staff, according to the United States Strategic Bombing Survey's official report, "had a strong faith in the morale effects of bombing and thought that Germany's will to fight could be destroyed by the destruction of German cities....The first thousand-bomber raids on Cologne and Essen marked the real beginning of this campaign." At the Casablanca Conference in January, 1943, this faith was affirmed as Allied strategy; larger-scale air attacks would be carried out to achieve "the destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic system and the undermining of the morale of the German people to the point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened."

It was the same strategy Mussolini had used in dropping bombs on civilians in the Ethiopian campaign and the Spanish Civil War, and it was the same strategy used in bombing civilian populations from Kiev to Coventry--all to the horrified outcries of the liberal, democratic, capitalist nations of the West. The only difference in the two strategies was that the English and American attacks on German, French, Czechoslovakian, and other cities made the Fascist bombing of civilians seem puny.

World War 2 did not end, but rather sustained, the Fascist notions that war is a proper mode of solving international political problems, and that, once a nation is at war, any means whatsoever justify victory. The saturation bombing of Vietnamese villages by American bombers dropping napalm and cluster bombs, which are deliberately intended for people, not bridges or factories, and leave particularly cruel wounds, has been in accord with the thinking of the Allies in World War 2--that "the morale" of the enemy could thereby be destroyed. In 1968 Daniel Ellsberg, at the time an official in the Department of Defense, publicly described this psychological objective in the strategic bombing of Vietnam. But Vietnam is only another example of the post-World War 2 acceptance of mass slaughter. When British historian A.J.P. Taylor was asked how he could place Hitler in the same broad context of evil shared by other nations, in view of the killing of six million Jews, he responded that those nations that had defeated Hitler were now stockpiling weapons capable of killing far more."
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-22-2012 , 03:44 PM
Often wish we had more insight into the whats whys and hows of what could have happened if a test detonation at a neutral atoll etc in front of Japanese high command had been performed.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-22-2012 , 06:16 PM
If the Japanese did not surrender unconditionally the probably would have rearmed and it was possible that they would have been able to contest the Pax Americana that ruled the Pacific.

Look at the US, a country that can war with impunity will do so.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-23-2012 , 05:42 AM
I think it was fair game to use the atomic bombs.

The Japanese got what they gave, imo. When the Japanese engaged in such horrid atrocities against the innocent peoples of China, Philippines, Malaysians, Indonesians, etc, they had to expect the same in turn. And I know that opens the debate: 'if we purposely kill innocents, than we're no better than them.'

I'd have more problems with the use of the atomic bombs, if the Japanese themselves didn't engage in atrocities that far eclipsed those of the Germans. I find it equally offensive actually that nobody (in Western Culture that is) really cares at all about what the Japanese did, and yet we're still guilt-drenched by what the Germans did. We're still dealing with the guilt of dropping the bomb in the first place. Obviously, I'm not trying to minimize the cruelty of anything that was done by anybody. Yet if the Japanese were white and engaged in the atrocities they did, we'd still be apologizing. But as it stands, the Japanese get a complete free pass. We've even taken-on the burden of their guilt.

Maybe I'm just flat wrong on this, but I don't see much difference in going into the cities and blasting them to ruin day-by-day, or dropping the atom bombs. To me, it's just a debate over the best way to completely destroy somebody else.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-23-2012 , 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse
Often wish we had more insight into the whats whys and hows of what could have happened if a test detonation at a neutral atoll etc in front of Japanese high command had been performed.
Yes it would have been very nice if they could have done this.

Most likely the fact they could only produce 2 bombs at that time ruled it out.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-23-2012 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
I'd have more problems with the use of the atomic bombs, if the Japanese themselves didn't engage in atrocities that far eclipsed those of the Germans.
Not the civilians in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or Tokyo (who were incinerated by firebombs). That's the problem with both nationalism and aerial bombing. You attribute collective guilt to people who had no control.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-23-2012 , 02:12 PM
If you ask an insane question, you get insane answers.

Generally people who REALLY know what firebombing, terror bombing and the kind of destruction Japan and Germany was taking, they do not mind the A-Bomb. As Carlin says, if you take things completely out of context :

''do you think its ok or wrong do drop an A-Bomb in a war''. The answer is a snap no.

But this is so much larger then just ''drop it or not''

First, people have to realize the fanaticism of Japanese defenders. They had seen what kind of dedication some of the Nazi's had shown. Dresden and Hamburg completely transformed into piles of rubble, and yet 16 year old boys fought fanatically in the ''volksgrenadier'' divisions. The Japanese had shown even more intensity and ferocity in their fighting.

In the case of Germany, the bulk of the fighting in Germany had been done by the Red Army; however in the case of Japan, America would probably get their fair share of combat with extremely high casualties. It was simply a factor of saving more lives.

Another factor is that in 1945, the effects of radiation were grossly underestimated. The A-Bomb was just a bigger, meaner version of firebombing. They had no clue of the long term effects of radiation. They figured A-bomb --> Send troops in a day or two later. We now know that is insane and most of these soldiers would suffer from radiation poisoning.

The ''radiation'' factor of A-bomb is a big scary thing for people. The idea of leaving land untouchable for a century and creating tons of biological damage is a post-1970's/Chernobyl point of view.

This aside, i do think that with a 1945 point of view, it was correct - however knowing the effects of radiation, i would perhaps reconsider if i were Truman.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-31-2012 , 03:09 PM
Thank heavens we dropped the bomb. It didn't just end WWII but resulted in the human races longest run of uninterrupted peace between the major powers. Once the nukes fell everyone saw with their own eyes what those nukes meant.

It's a very real possibility that instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki it could have been New York City and Boston. This could have happened if everyone hadn't seen what the results of the weapons was. No one realized just how incredibly nasty they were until they were used imo.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-31-2012 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG-NIT
Drop the bomb - It took two to convince them to surrender - or risk 100,000 American casualties in an invasion of the mainland that could have added two years to the war.
typical. How many atom bombs would it take for America to surrender? Hilter was dead, the invasion was over. America chased Japan back to their Homeland but this wasnt enough, they wanted revenge. Japan did not want to surrender but they where crippled so they were very little threat to anyone but the yanks needed revenge, to bring home the 'W' for freedom or some other media spin bullsh*t. Maybe my judgement is a little biased because of Americas recent occupations however. The home of the free, the land of the hypocrite i guess.
Make a change vote Ron Paul 2012
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
05-31-2012 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
I find it equally offensive actually that nobody (in Western Culture that is) really cares at all about what the Japanese did, and yet we're still guilt-drenched by what the Germans did. We're still dealing with the guilt of dropping the bomb in the first place. Obviously, I'm not trying to minimize the cruelty of anything that was done by anybody. Yet if the Japanese were white and engaged in the atrocities they did, we'd still be apologizing. But as it stands, the Japanese get a complete free pass. We've even taken-on the burden of their guilt.
Thought to Germans were the whitest white people on earth, can't really see anything other than a mildly racist commment here.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-01-2012 , 12:43 PM
Totally agree with you.
And second reason, of course was power demonstration to the world, and particularly to USSR.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-01-2012 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
I think it was fair game to use the atomic bombs.

The Japanese got what they gave, imo. When the Japanese engaged in such horrid atrocities against the innocent peoples of China, Philippines, Malaysians, Indonesians, etc, they had to expect the same in turn. And I know that opens the debate: 'if we purposely kill innocents, than we're no better than them.'

I'd have more problems with the use of the atomic bombs, if the Japanese themselves didn't engage in atrocities that far eclipsed those of the Germans. I find it equally offensive actually that nobody (in Western Culture that is) really cares at all about what the Japanese did, and yet we're still guilt-drenched by what the Germans did. We're still dealing with the guilt of dropping the bomb in the first place. Obviously, I'm not trying to minimize the cruelty of anything that was done by anybody. Yet if the Japanese were white and engaged in the atrocities they did, we'd still be apologizing. But as it stands, the Japanese get a complete free pass. We've even taken-on the burden of their guilt.

Maybe I'm just flat wrong on this, but I don't see much difference in going into the cities and blasting them to ruin day-by-day, or dropping the atom bombs. To me, it's just a debate over the best way to completely destroy somebody else.
But by the same token the Jews/Russians were 'whiter' than the Japanese victims you mention.

I agree there is an anti white (and male) slant presented in a lot of circles (read 'Bias' by Bernard Goldberg if you really want to get your blood boiling) but I don't really think the German/Japanese comparison qualifies. It is/was well known that Japan just had a different code of war than everyone else (however wrong it was) and they didn't really discriminate.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-02-2012 , 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrk
Too lazy to link, but the most recent episode of Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast (is this what prompted this thread Zeno?) is a must listen on this topic.
huge thanks for the recommendation!

I used to listen to this guy but was always slightly annoyed by his voice. just listened to a few of his eps and am no longer annoyed. he's awesome

I was laughed to myself when he started talking about the germans using zeppelins to bomb people. that seems like the least terrifying thing possible. I'm imagining this slow moving blimp crawling across the sky and then me grabbing my bb gun and taking it out
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-02-2012 , 11:13 PM
Do you feel that if Japan had the theoretical means to engage the United States using atomic tactics, that they would have reacted similary to the US in that position?
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote

      
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