Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

History Discussion of History up to Circa 1990

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2011, 01:53 PM   #126
Nut Low
banned
 
Nut Low's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
I'm curious what context you mean. The argument you make in the post before seems inherently wrong as the Germans could easily have attacked military targets by day and civilian by night in the early stages of the Battle of Britain had they no qualms.
I guess you glossed over the "argument" since you didn't understand it too well. The German plan for Operation Sea Lion was to 1) establish air supremacy; so that 2) they could keep the British Navy at bay. Their plan did not include the bombing of any civilian targets as that was not conducent to their immediate goals; it had nothing to do with their moral beliefs regarding taking out civilian targets or fear of reprisal from such.

The Germans were still there to fight a war and win that war. However, as evidenced by the bombing of Rotterdam, they had no qualms with hitting civilian targets if such was part of their war strategy. For the Battle of Britain, it was not. So, it would make entirely no sense to continually bomb civilian targets "by night" if that was not part of the strategy to begin with.

My comment about "proper context" concerns your outrageous comparison between the wonton tactics of the belligerant country against that of the defending country attempting to end the war. Even beyond that, the Bombing of Dresden at best (to your position) was still an act against military targets, especially since the Germans started spreading their assets in and among civilian areas. Finally, in the context of the times when it took squadrons of bombers to effectively eliminate just one target (its not like today with modern weapons) and the fact their operation was not in violation of the Geneva Convention, your "comparison" is just a hackeneyed attempt to recharacterize something to suit your modern views which are completely impractical and unfair given the big picture.

* I see you were going on about this earlier in the thread. You were not so convincing there, either.

Last edited by Nut Low; 11-22-2011 at 02:01 PM.
Nut Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 01:17 PM   #127
barradri
veteran
 
barradri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Teaching rich kids in Cairo
Posts: 2,258
Re: The Second World War

Read all this, I should bring my 95 yr old ex RAF photographer grandad here, jeez he has some stories.

Btw I have read a lot of books on the angel of death but wow that clip was sick.

Also ATM am watching a Nat geo doc on the big boy bomb. Makes me sad that nuclear fusion or fission can't remember, was ever discovered.
barradri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:27 PM   #128
adios
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Russian Troll
Posts: 20,748
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
V1 and V2 glide bombs? Jet Fighters? Plastic explosives? Germany had a huge R&D program during the war.
So what does this prove? I think it's pretty clear that the Nazi military strategy was based on winning battles in rapid fashion and expressly not wanting to be in battles of attrition. Of course the Nazi's were lunatics too so that doesn't mean the strategy was viable. Personally I don't think too hard about the machinations of crazy people.

Quote:
It's much more likely that they simply realised gas was a terrible weapon for use in wars without static lines for pretty obvious reasons. The development and large scale depolyment of effective and easy to use gas masks amongst soldiers and civilian populations probably swayed any doubt.
Maybe, maybe not

Quote:
They did of course use gas against static targets just as they did in WW1 - only the soldiers were replaced with civilians and the trenches were replaced with fake shower rooms.

Exactly
adios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:28 PM   #129
adios
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Russian Troll
Posts: 20,748
Re: The Second World War

Anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor today. It was 70 years ago and my how the world has changed since.
adios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 07:41 PM   #130
monarco
veteran
 
monarco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,417
Re: The Second World War

Bump. There was some good discussion in this thread.
monarco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #131
StimAbuser
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
StimAbuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Panic Wrestling
Posts: 7,187
Re: The Second World War

Anyone got any theories as to why Italy was so awful at warfare?

At the beginning of WW2 afaik they had a navy bigger than the french & British combined & a pretty good air force, good tanks and a pretty sizable army. Yet they were consistently defeated by much much smaller & weaker armies and were more of a hindrance to Hitler than an actual ally.

Last edited by StimAbuser; 04-12-2012 at 02:00 PM.
StimAbuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 02:41 PM   #132
Honey Badger
veteran
 
Honey Badger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ALEA IACTA EST
Posts: 2,233
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by StimAbuser View Post
Anyone got any theories as to why Italy was so awful at warfare?

At the beginning of WW2 afaik they had a navy bigger than the french & British combined & a pretty good air force, good tanks and a pretty sizable army. Yet they were consistently defeated by much much smaller & weaker armies and were more of a hindrance to Hitler than an actual ally.
I have pondered this from time to time. I honestly believe that Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Pompey, Gaius Marius and Gaius Julius Caesar would be appalled by the ineptness of italy in the last few centuries. What would they say to Italians today?

This is the cradle of some of the most skilled military minds and powers in world history. And now? Like Churchill was to have allegedly said, at the start of WWII finding out Italy was going the Germans (i am paraphrasing) you would be happier fighting against them rather then be stuck with the burden of having them on your side.

Powers rise and decline. Heck Greece produced the Spartan's and look at them today. This is clearly something that says a lot about the great military nations in the east. They have ebbs and flows but not the lol fall off like from one of the greatest military crucibles in all of history.
Honey Badger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 02:59 PM   #133
StimAbuser
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
StimAbuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Panic Wrestling
Posts: 7,187
Re: The Second World War

It's strange too because they were involved in WWI, so they should of had a ton of experienced generals/leaders.

Pretty sure they had a huge advantage in every battle in terms of numbers of men, tanks, planes, and naval fighters. Yet were easily thwarted by the french, the Greek, & the British in North Africa.

I guess it just shows how important military leadership is. Even with awful leadership it blows my mind they got beat back by a tiny British force in North Africa until Rummel showed up.

But yea good point about the Romans. What a fall off.
StimAbuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 11:58 PM   #134
Mandor_TFL
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 728
Re: The Second World War

The Italian Navy was not larger than the British, not by a longshot. They had zero aircraft carriers, and 6 Battleships total. On a theater basis it was much closer as the British were obviously stretched very thin especially after Japan entered the war.

The Italian Air Force certainly suffered due to the fact that the Italian planes were of inferior quality compared to the British.

Quality of equipment certainly must have extended to the army as well, though I am not as well versed in why the Italian Army performed so poorly. Obviously it's inability to defeat Greece in 1941 goes to show how poor the Italian Army organization was.


I remember reading back in WWI that the Italian army performed so poorly due to a variety of issues. Some due to recent unification, some due to poor leadership, poor peacetime training, poor mobilization plans etc.. So when Italy entered the war it entered without any real proper preparations compared to any of the other major powers. Also Italian officers shot an extraordinary amount of their own men due to draconian orders to prevent retreat. It might be hard to train future leaders for your army when your busy shooting any smart enough to order a tactical retreat. ( Or when your busy losing every battle you are in due to inept leadership )
Mandor_TFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 02:42 AM   #135
3rdCheckRaise
veteran
 
3rdCheckRaise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sit 10
Posts: 2,872
Re: The Second World War

Not sure if you guys caught up on this, but an audio recording recently surfaced of Hitlers conversation with Mannerheim.
http://archive.org/details/OnlyKnown...-PublicVersion
Quote:
Adolf Hitler decided to visit Finland on June 4, 1942, ostensibly to congratulate Mannerheim on his 75th birthday. But Mannerheim did not want to meet him in his headquarters in Mikkeli nor in Helsinki, as it would have seemed like an official state visit. The meeting took place at a railway siding near the airfield at Immola, in south-eastern Finland, and was arranged in secrecy.
During the visit, an engineer of the Finnish broadcasting company YLE, Thor Damen, succeeded in recording Hitler's and Mannerheim's private conversation. This had to be done secretly, as Hitler never allowed others to record him off-guard. This is the only known recording of Hitler speaking in an unofficial tone.
Pretty amazing and somewhat surprising info. Hitler admits underestimating the strength of soviet army and sounds amazed at the number of tanks soviets produced. Also states that he was sure that Soviets were planning to attack first in 41 or 42 so he decided to do that first. Also a lot of info about 39 Molotov pact.
3rdCheckRaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2012, 08:42 PM   #136
loK2thabrain
Tiger > Jack
 
loK2thabrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,947
Re: The Second World War

thanks for posting that. very interesting.
loK2thabrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 08:15 PM   #137
Ratamahatta
Pooh-Bah
 
Ratamahatta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 4,154
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by loK2thabrain View Post
thanks for posting that. very interesting.
+1!
But is there a translation?
Ratamahatta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2012, 06:44 AM   #138
monarco
veteran
 
monarco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,417
Re: The Second World War

Here's a good transcript with some additional info at the beginning: http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewto...4104ef#p119636
here's a youtube version with the translation as background video to the recording: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8raDPASvq0

It's truly fascinating. He's very well spoken as you'd expect (the transcript doesnt quite do it justice, especially considering he's freely monologizing for a good few minutes) and his voice and overall style is completely different compared to his speeches (f.e. this one). No rolling Rs, very different intonation and a very slight austrian accent that's absent from his public adresses as far as i know.
monarco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:15 PM   #139
lol i play 2NL
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 666
Re: The Second World War



Says it all imo
lol i play 2NL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 07:20 PM   #140
MrWooster
veteran
 
MrWooster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Shoving AK
Posts: 2,984
Re: The Second World War

I have just finished reading Double Cross - The True Story of the D-Day Spies and would recommend it to anyone interested in 2nd World War history. It reads much more like a spy novel than a historical book, but opens a fascinating incite into just how thoroughly the German spy network was controlled by the British.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...8-double-cross
MrWooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 04:09 PM   #141
loK2thabrain
Tiger > Jack
 
loK2thabrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,947
Re: The Second World War

sounds awesome, thanks for the recommendation!
loK2thabrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 08:11 PM   #142
Wandel_4_President
stranger
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by lol i play 2NL View Post


Says it all imo
Oh lawd.
Wandel_4_President is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 02:01 PM   #143
iloveMarina
centurion
 
iloveMarina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 153
Re: The Second World War

nice pic. 70% true.
iloveMarina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 05:43 PM   #144
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War

An interesting selection of WW2 photos from imgur:





















Full album here here.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 03:47 PM   #145
MrWooster
veteran
 
MrWooster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Shoving AK
Posts: 2,984
Re: The Second World War

Apologies if its already been posted, but one of the best (IMO) documentaries of ww2 is available on youtube (pretty sure its all legit as its been there for several months).

Its the French produced Aplocalypse. Its approx 6 hours of original WW2 footage, almost 100% in color and gives a very rounded perspective of WW2 (something which a lot of other documentaries do not do).

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocaly...cond_World_War
IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1508238/
First episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjzYR0-vau0
YouTube user profile with the rest of the episodes: http://www.youtube.com/user/alnka1974/videos
MrWooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #146
Ratamahatta
Pooh-Bah
 
Ratamahatta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 4,154
Re: The Second World War

Apocalypse is good but it's not my favorite one. I think it is too short and lacks details and explanations. For instance: I don't like that they talk about the Anschluss already on 8th minute.

I would recommend World War 2: The Complete History. I think it's better because they go deeper in pre-war politics and explain correlation between WW1 and WW2 among other things.

First episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU
Ratamahatta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 08:30 AM   #147
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 10,487
Re: The Second World War

I always loved The World at War as a documentary series. I think I must've watched it about 5 times over the years and having Olivier doing the narrative is just incredible.
Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 04:26 PM   #148
Ratamahatta
Pooh-Bah
 
Ratamahatta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 4,154
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker View Post
I always loved The World at War as a documentary series. I think I must've watched it about 5 times over the years and having Olivier doing the narrative is just incredible.
Is it the one from 1973?
Ratamahatta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 03:24 AM   #149
Double Eagle
Health Care Thread Czar
 
Double Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pullin the Plug on Grannie
Posts: 8,282
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratamahatta View Post
Apocalypse is good but it's not my favorite one. I think it is too short and lacks details and explanations. For instance: I don't like that they talk about the Anschluss already on 8th minute.

I would recommend World War 2: The Complete History. I think it's better because they go deeper in pre-war politics and explain correlation between WW1 and WW2 among other things.

First episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU
LOL nice, a documentary from the neo-Nazi perspective.

"It's not clear who burned the Reichstag"

"Churchill's speeches in the thirties were the ravings of a lunatic"

Etc, etc.

Last edited by Double Eagle; 12-09-2012 at 03:29 AM.
Double Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 06:06 AM   #150
JayTeeMe
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
JayTeeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The night shift
Posts: 24,864
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratamahatta View Post
Questions:
In what extent did Wehrmacht and Red Army used captured tanks, artillery and other heavy weapons? When reading about great battles of WWII I always see statistics which mention how many weapons were captured by winning side, but I never hear anything about their usage.

Also: why didn't Wehrmacht use chemical weapons on eastern front? They were first to use poison gas in WWI, they used artillery which were originally designed to fire gas canisters and for Wehrmacht war against USSR was a war of annihilation. So why didn't they?
The Germans used tons of artillery pieces and trucks captured at Dunkirk against the Soviets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vetiver View Post
Why did Germany form an alliance with Italy? What was the relative strength of Italy militarily? Did Germany ally for purely geographical strategic reasons? Is there any indication that Germany intended to turn on Italy in the future if they conquered all the enemy Allied countries?
Italy was doing exactly what it did in WWI, sitting on the sidelines waiting to join the winning side. After the battle of France it looked for all the world that the Germans were gonna win so they invaded France hoping to pick up some concessions.
JayTeeMe is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online