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Old 03-23-2011, 12:29 PM   #46
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Re: The Second World War

^ Thanks, I'm gonna buy that
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:31 PM   #47
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Re: The Second World War

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Originally Posted by Ratamahatta View Post
Questions:
In what extent did Wehrmacht and Red Army used captured tanks, artillery and other heavy weapons? When reading about great battles of WWII I always see statistics which mention how many weapons were captured by winning side, but I never hear anything about their usage.
The Germans captured a huge amount of Russian equipment in the early phases of Barbarossa, and used a lot of it.

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_cm_Pak_36%28r%29

I believe at one point the SS Das Reich Panzer Division had an entire battalion of T-34s.

They used a lot of French and Czech equipment as well IIRC.

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Old 03-23-2011, 02:12 PM   #48
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Re: The Second World War

From the 731 unit wiki
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According to the 2002 International Symposium on the Crimes of Bacteriological Warfare, the number of people killed by the Imperial Japanese Army germ warfare and human experiments is around 580,000
I never realised they were so brutal! Any other examples of this?
In UK history we only learned about the causes and victory in the West; no Japan, no pacific etc..
I know why but it seems a huge gap! Good books to read up on for this?
Reading that wiki about 731 definitely edits my thoughts on Japanese conduct. The way its been portrayed to me in the past is just that they were a resilient enemy; and the atrocities were more or less equatible with other nations; allied or not.
731 is just mad awful though
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:53 PM   #49
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Re: The Second World War

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From the 731 unit wiki


I never realised they were so brutal! Any other examples of this?
In UK history we only learned about the causes and victory in the West; no Japan, no pacific etc..
I know why but it seems a huge gap! Good books to read up on for this?
Reading that wiki about 731 definitely edits my thoughts on Japanese conduct. The way its been portrayed to me in the past is just that they were a resilient enemy; and the atrocities were more or less equatible with other nations; allied or not.
731 is just mad awful though
Rape of Nanking.

Japan was not fair in fighting at all. They were brutal and fought to the death. Only 30,000 pows vs 1.3 million soldiers killed. Only 85,000 wounded. This is a crazy statistic. No other nation had numbers like this. They simply did not surrender ever even when hopeless. Consider Germany had 11,000,000 soldiers captured and Soviets 4,000,000. British had like 300,000 captured, 500,000 killed, 500,000 wounded.

They would target medics on the battlefield. They would treat pow's inhumanely and desecrate American dead leaving them to be found by their buddies. They used kamikaze's and suicide missions.

Just some examples.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:21 PM   #50
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Re: The Second World War

I think the war between China and Japan was always quite a traditional and age old war, the modern China vs Japan war started early in the 1930's I think, but historically they had been warring for many centuries. So it wasn't really included in the official scope of WW2, but I might be wrong on that. I rarely see it mentioned though (also I rarely see the Finish/Russian war mentioned even though it was an incredibly important stage of the overall war).

Geologically the feud between Japan and China was fairly unimportant for the Western world, which is why it probably isn't had so much weight put on it from education. It didn't really affect our economy, nor did it noisily interfere with our morals. It's a shame in my opinion that only one brutal act of the war (the holocaust) is taught, it seems to give the impression that it was an isolated freak occurance, but sadly, even to this day such occurances are not so rare.

Unit 731 was horrific and nightmarish. It was on an equally morally deprived footing, if not worse, than the hollocaust. Read up on the rape of Nanking if you want to read more about what the Japanese were capable of during WW2 as well. What strikes me is the imagination some of the Japanese displayed. I despair that people with such imaginations and intelligence focused their energies on the systematic liquidation of human beings.

The Japanese method is a reasonably good argument for attempting to end the war quickly with atomic weapons. During WW2 my grand dad was stationed as an infantryman in India, and him and his friends were petrified of being sent into action in Japan. Stories of ferocity of the battles leaked back to the common solider, and scared them to death. No one wanted to go there.

Arguably also, (and I hope this splinters into a discussion on the topic), the estimated deaths of a land invasion would be far far greater than the bombs. On some of the small islands the Allies invaded, when they approached small villages mothers would jump off cliffs holding their babies because they were convinced by Japanese propaganda that the Western people (who most of them had never ever seen) were there to kill, torture and rape them all. The 'fight to the very end' mentality is a very good deterant, but when it is obvious they are going to lose, it's a very good way to waste a lot of life.

Flags of Our fathers the book, is a superb books which captures the ferocious nature of Japanese warfare very well, a lot better than the films. It contains graphic details that the films couldn't really get near. The book is fascinating, as it's central subject is that famous photograph. A stunning photograph, that seems to stir a sense of patriotism in me and romanticism, symbolising the struggle and sacrifice for an unarguable good quintessentially, where the cause far outweighs the needs of individuals.

The photo was taken on Iwo Jima, I think deaths per square km wise this was the most deadly place you could be in any stage of the war as a combat troop. A disturbing and tragic battle that lasted around 6 weeks over an area about 8 square miles big. 24,000 people died on those 8 square miles. That's 3,000 bodies per square mile. That's 70 deaths per square mile every single day of the battles. Of the roughly ~18,000 Japenese deaths, only around 200 were taken prisoner. That's how unforgiving Iwo Jima was.

It seemed in WW2 the further East you went, the more horrific and unforgiving the battles were. At least in Western Europe, a certain degree of ethics was for the most part displayed by fighting troops.

For a German troop in France, a severe punishment was to be sent to the Eastern front. As well as being an effective punishment, it actually backfired a little, as seasoned Eastern Front German troops who were reinforced with punishment soldiers wondered why they were there at all.

The Russian German war was a terrible event. The clash between differences in political ideals became more polarised. The modern age of media unleashed it's power as well in the form of efficient and mass propaganda. It fuelled hatred and racism. This in turn caused the battles to be particularly despicable.

'In Deadly Combat' and 'Sniper on the Eastern Front' describe some harrowing events in visceral detail. And how many more of these events happened, to real people that will never be known? Fields turned into meat grinders with mud boiling from non stop artillery, and people being forced to run into it. A German Flamethrower tank that found a pocket of a few hundred Russians in a hole in the steppes and charged in with them, the cries of hundreds of men burning to death and the tracks churning flesh. Faces grinning in agony before their bodies burst as tanks rolled over them. WW2 was the beginning of the modern age of mechanised warfare, and all the horror that brought along with it.

Last edited by Gullanian; 03-23-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:33 PM   #51
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Re: The Second World War

The worst thing is that scientists from that unit, while being much more brutal than say Mengele, were never persecuted after the war.

One of the things they did was testing how human body reacts on extreme cold. During this experiments they would freeze limbs of people in such a way that flesh would come out of the bone:


NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED!!!
Spoiler:
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:35 PM   #52
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Re: The Second World War

That clip is from the film 'Men Behind the Sun', it's a Chinese film about Unit 731 (so it's not a real clip if anyone was wondering) although those types of tests were real.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093170/

It's been criticised as being exploitative (that is to say, disgustingly graphic for the sake of being so) which does carry a lot of merit if you watch the film. I'm not sure to what extent scenes were exaggerated because of that. But netherless it's interesting to watch the film, but you should read up on it first, a background history of Unit 731 then some criticisms of the film before watching. It's very disturbing so be careful if you decide to watch it, especially more disturbing when you know it's based on truth.
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:49 AM   #53
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Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratamahatta View Post
The worst thing is that scientists from that unit, while being much more brutal than say Mengele, were never persecuted after the war.

One of the things they did was testing how human body reacts on extreme cold. During this experiments they would freeze limbs of people in such a way that flesh would come out of the bone:


NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED!!!
Spoiler:
clicked the spoiler to see if it was what i thought it was. when i realized it was just that i quickly scrolled down; that sequence plus some more before and after is on youtube and is still the most grueling thing i've ever seen (and it's only from a movie), no need to watch it or something worse ever again.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:03 AM   #54
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Re: The Second World War

Haven't seen it mentioned.

"The Rise and Fall fo the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.

It's been a few years since I last read this one, but I remember being amazed at how I was at times basically on the Nazi side. That's a pretty terrible statement for me to make, but for example; When they invade Yugoslavia to put down an uprising, delaying the invasion of Russia, I found myself irrate that strategic planners could allow such a delay. Obv, I'm happy it happened the way it did, but you get the idea.
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:14 AM   #55
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Re: The Second World War

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The large scale firebombings rank up there with the worst tragedies of WW2 in my opinion. Largely ineffectual in any military sense, they killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, destroyed some of the great cultural cities of the world, and wasted thousands of pilots lives that could have been used to attack military and supply targets.

It's an often over looked part of the Allies conduct during the war as the winners tend to wright the history, but it is always worth remembering that the British killed more civilians in one night in Dresden than died in the entire of the Blitz/V1/V2 campaign against England.
The british only killed more in Dresden than the Germans did in England because THEY COULD. If Germany had the ability to fire bomb England or the US you could bet your ass they would have!
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:26 AM   #56
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Re: The Second World War

Yeah, nazis, yanks, british, all the same.
The only difference is that they killed more civilians then nazis, because they COULD, yup.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:23 AM   #57
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Re: The Second World War

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Yeah, nazis, yanks, british, all the same.
The only difference is that they killed more civilians then nazis, because they COULD, yup.
Hah??? Wtf?
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:02 AM   #58
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Re: The Second World War

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Yeah, nazis, yanks, british, all the same.
The only difference is that they killed more civilians then nazis, because they COULD, yup.
Yeah, they should have made better use of those laser and GPS guided bombs.
Err...Wait

You do realize that factories, refineries, power plants, and communication centers were all considered legit military targets right? In fact, they are still considered legit military targets. The difference between WWII and now is they didn't have any good way to target those facilities with any sort of accuracy.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:31 AM   #59
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Re: The Second World War

The allied bombings were more destructive and malicious than simply missing legitimate targets.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:38 PM   #60
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Re: The Second World War

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The allied bombings were more destructive and malicious than simply missing legitimate targets.
Maybe so, maybe not. In any case, the definition of the term "civilian" for the purposes of a WWII discussion demands discussion. The citizens of Germany and Japan were complicit in starting and maintaining the war. The citizens of Germany were complicit, either directly or indirectly in allowing the holocaust.

Unless the citizens of Germany and Japan were demonstrating in the streets demanding their governments' capitulation, I don't consider them civilians.

When you are partially responsible for putting a chain of events in motion and you do nothing to stop it once it gets going, you are not innocent. Any real innocent people adversely affected are their responsibility, not that of the parties fighting and losing their own people's lives in order to end the war.
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