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Old 01-05-2014, 05:15 AM   #46
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
How does a history thread have 30 replies so fast? Is it because we are dealing with the topic of Islam and or Israel. When it comes to Islam or Israel people seem to go nuts.
<raises hand, straining out of seat>

Ooh! Ooh! I Know! I know!



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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Its about finding common ground ...
OK, so why don't you try to do that, rather than continuing to push ridiculous conclusions?

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
when have historic facts of how only 1% of Jews disappeared in Muslim majority countries during ww2, I believe this is a instance which is suppose to unite as opposed to divide.
Normally I'd be prepared to accept the bolded statement at face value, but since you have made a number of citations of incorrect statements, or drawn incorrect conclusions from otherwise true statements, I'm going to ask you to show the numbers that support this claim. Which countries, how many Jews "disappeared" in each, how is "disappeared" defined, and what are the sources? If the claims are true (and I expect that in some sense they are) I expect we'll be able to see some sort of causal factors that are more significant than the countries having a majority Muslim population.
Territories in which German armed forces landed and had a majority Inuit population had 0% of their Jewish population disappear during WWII, and AFAIK, no Inuit ever served in the SS or killed any Jews. By your way of thinking, this makes the Inuit even more praiseworthy than Muslims.
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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
What the heck Dereds, aren't you Irish? I like Ireland, Not that this has anything to do with this conversation.
Then why did you bring it up, unless you are trolling?

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
I feel very comfortable with my OP and you have every right to disagree. Still, unless some compelling evidence is brought fourth in which negates my evidence of how only 1% of Jews died in Muslim Majority countries, ...
You have provided no evidence for this claim, and since Jews in majority Muslim countries (other than Albania) were not sent to extermination camps, and since there was no German administration of any Muslim majority country (again, except Albania) Jews were at far less risk of disappearing than Jews in Europe. And as for Albania, while it was the only European country with a higher Jewish population after the war than before the war, it was also the country with the highest ratio of (Jews deported to extermination camps) : (prewar Jewish population)

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
or if someone can show how Jews were lying about how Muslims saved them during WW2. Do you really want to go down this route?
Nobody here is saying that Jews lied about Muslims saving them. Rather they are saying:
  • That much of the saving was kind but not particularly heroic, i.e. that contrary to the title and arguments in OP, few Muslims risked their lives, freedom or even property to save Jews.
  • That some Jews were mistaken about the degree of danger they were in, or the intent of - or risks run by - their supposed Muslim benefactors, but that when their cases were investigated by trained Jewish investigators, no actual heroic aid was found to have been given.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
I mean do you want to go down the route of saying Muslims slaughtered Jews during WW2 as opposed to saving them?
Why would anybody say such a thing? Some Muslims saved Jews. A few of those did so heroically. Some Muslims murdered Jews - rather more Muslims than the heroic saviours, but perhaps fewer then the no-risk-taking benefactors. More Muslims arrested hundreds of Jews who were then sent to German extermination camps. The vast majority of Muslims did none of these things. Both betrayal of Jews and heroic salvation of Jews was essentially a non-Muslim European thing (> 99% of instances). Muslim participation rates at either end of the scale were so insignificant that there is no valid way to claim either was characteristic of Muslims.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
This upsets people because it goes against 1%, it goes against testimonials of Jews and quite honestly it seeks to divide.
You seem to be the only one who is upset to find that the rest of us think your 1% argument is meaningless. Nobody here is denying the testimony of Jews. We are suggesting you and others you cite are misinterpreting some of the testimony, and we are pointing out that the most authoritative Jewish agency which looks at such things draws different conclusions from that testimony and surrounding evidence than what you would have us believe. We are not seeking to divide. We are seeking to avoid the travesty of history that you are presenting.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
I'm actually saying Muslims and Jews worked together during WW2
If that were all you were saying (and implying), you wouldn't be getting these replies. But Germans and British worked together too, as did Germans and Russians.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
and I will continue to link stories of Muslims and Jews working together in this thread of that thread.
Why? Nobody is denying that some Muslims helped some Jews. Yet that is all such continued posting will prove.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
RLK, its a history thread which discusses actions during WW2. Nevertheless I'm just about done with this discussion.
posted shortly before five other posts by thekid345.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
I wanted to add one more thing,

When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.

I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.
Nobody said that more Muslims sided with the Axis than the Allies. However, significantly more European Muslims (by which I meant Muslims from the Balkans) sided with the Axis than with the Allies. They didn't do this for anti-semitic or even pro-Nazi reasons so much as in response to generations of Serbian and Croation Catholic oppression.

Your misrepresentation of what was said about Jewish testimony of Muslims saving them is dealt with above.

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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet View Post
It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend if you look at it behind the 2-dimensional view that is being presented ITT. Arab leaders tended to be pro-Nazi not out of any particular animus toward Jews, but rather as part of a comprehensive anti-British view that is understandable given British imperial policy in the region.
...
Overall I find this to be a very poor thread that reduces people to mere religious affiliation without taking larger trends into consideration.
I doubt very many Arab leaders were actually pro-Nazi. And I doubt that the Arab view was comprehensively anti-British. However, if your main point is that the main reasons for alliance or adherence of particular Muslim groups were ones of national interest rather than religion, I would agree.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
As a side note I recently joined a very good, well known History forum. Responses include the point that Millions of Muslims fought for the allied forces during ww2 compared to the thousands who fought with the Axis forces.
If that is what was actually said, then it isn't really a "very good" history forum. What you said implies a 1,000:1 ratio. Actual serving ratio was closer to 0.5% of that - 5:1. A clear majority of Muslims serving in the British forces did not fight against the Germans.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
While some Muslims did assist in the murder of Jews during WW2 under the advice of a psychopath. A far great majority more Muslims despised Hitler and fought against him.
Perhaps when you say "majority", you only mean "portion". I suggest you have no evidence to support the claim that a majority of Muslims despised Hitler, or for any claim that a majority of Muslims serving in the Red Army served for any reason other than coercion. I already pointed out to you that the majority of Muslims in British Service did not fight against Germans. I would suggest to you that a majority of Muslims had no strong opinion regarding Hitler, many having never heard of him.

If you want to suggest instead that a majority of Muslim leaders in the Balkans, North Africa and other Arab-inhabited areas did not trust or support Nazism, I would agree, but that is not equivalent to what you actually claimed.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Yes some Arab leaders were pro Nazi. Yet in comparison to the Arabs who fought with Allied forces, this number is minuscule. Here is a response from my other history forum.
Your unnamed history forum is not an authority at the same level as the sources I have cited. Nevertheless, let us look at what it claims. I don't think the word "minuscule" means what you think it does, unless you are comparing leaders on one side to whole forces on the other side (which is a meaningless comparison).

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
To address Do the Math
To be fair, CI, the majority of Muslims who served with the Germans during World War II, did so due to long-standing internal ethnic cleavages which existed, primarily within Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. The main focus was ongoing ethnic rivalries, especially between the Croats and Bosnians on one side and the Serbs on the other as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Religion was really a secondary element.
This is all good. I suggest it supports what I have been saying about there being no overall Muslim attitude of support or opposition to either side, but rather a range of attitudes driven by local circumstances.

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As for the 13th SS, it had both Bosnian Muslim and Croat Catholic personnel and a large contingent of Volkdeutsch.
True as far as it goes, and it leaves out that its senior officers, many senior NCOs and many of its technical troops were German. However, it doesn't give a fair representation of the relative strength of each ethnic component. Sources differ on exact figures. The numbers I quoted in my previous post were the most conservative (smallest number of Muslims) at peak strength from among several sources. According to some sources I may have understated Muslim enlistment by as much a 30%. Composition varied over time, with the Muslim portion declining relative to Volksdeutsch late in 1944, however I haven't seen a source which claims that even at this late point the Muslim component was less than 50%. At peak strength, Muslims comprised somewhere between 65% and 80% of total divisional manpower.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
It also had the dubious record of having had a mutiny in 1943 involving both Muslim and Catholic officers who wanted to join the French partisans.
I already partly addressed this canard in my previous post. Let me add that, AFAICT, the mutineers had a higher portion of non-Muslims than the Division as a whole. The didn't want to just join French partisans, they wanted to make their way back to Croatia.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Let's also keep in mind the Zeleni Kadar [Green cadres] - a Muslim militia in Bosnia which also joined the partisans.
Yes, lets keep them in mind. The word "cadres" should give you a clue about their small size. The word "minuscule" that you used above could be more accurately employed comparing the number of men who served in the Green Cadres compared to the number who served the Germans. In addition to the roughly 22,000 (many others say 23,000-26,000) who served in the Waffen SS, about 100,000 more Balkan Muslims served in the Wehrmacht, though many of these were in a non-frontline role.

This is the first place I have seen it claimed that the Green Cadres were on the same side as the partisans. The only way in which they "joined" the partisans, is that they took part in irregular warfare. The Green Cadres and a number of similar organizations were Muslim self-defence organizations formed to defend Muslim villages against raids by the Croatians and Serbs. I.e. they fought on neither main side, but protected their own.

A better example would have been the Muslim Brigades of the Communist Partisans.

In addition to Balkan Muslims, about 300,000 Soviet Muslims served in the German forces (Very roughly 10% of the number of Muslims in the Red Army) . In contrast few North African or Middle-Eastern Muslims served Gemany, totalling just about 5,000-6,000 Arabs and Berbers. There were also about 2,500 Muslims captured from the British Army who chose to serve the Germans.

The number of Muslims who fought along side the Japanese against the British was in six figures, and nearly as many Muslims fought with the Nationalist Chinese against the Russians and Mongolians.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941.
So, in Europe, as I said. One of the ~60 I already mentioned.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
"Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."
Pretty much all true except the choice of the word "population" is strange, since 99.99% of the population wasn't in a position to comply even if they wanted to. The article (written by a photographer, not a Vad Yashem investigator) seems to ignore what went on under and before the Italian occupation which preceded the German occupation. Most of the refusal to comply was on the part of a very small number of government bureaucrats, who were carrying on pre-Italian-occupation government policy set by the non-Muslim King Zog. AFAIK, nobody suffered any repercussions as a result of this refusal. Also, much of the fake documentation came from a pre-Italian-occupation program initiated by the King to attract Jewish refugees for economic reasons. Also, the rest of the article is technically correct but is worded in a way that makes things sound better than it was. Jews were deported by the Italians before the German occupation and eventually were killed in captivity. Jews were captured and deported to death camps from outside the pre-war borders of the Kingdom of Albania but from within the borders of the area Germany defined as Albania. In total the number of Jews deported from Albania to camps (not all of them died) was about 600, or about 1/3 the number that survived in Albania, or about 25 times the 1930 population of Albanian Jews. Finally it should be noted that the Germans had estimated in 1942 that there were only 200 Jews in Albania, and these had been accounted for by the Italian deportations, so they had no reason to suspect another 1800 were being sheltered there. They didn't look very hard.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
A reply from my other history thread,

--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part.
It is only significant WRT your claim in the thread title and in OP of heroic action by Muslims to save Jews. As you can see, that is not what the reply below is focusing on.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
The fact is hundreds of thousands of Muslims took part in putting an end to Hitler and the Holocaust - by serving in the Soviet army. They were Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tatars, Kirghiz, Tadjiks and others. They helped liberate the death camps. Their contribution should not be forgotten simply because they remain nameless in the Western world.
The Muslims in the Red Army were mostly conscripts. Many came from families which had been involved in independence movements for generations seeking to gain freedom from Russia. They didn't have a very good track record in battle against the Germans. (IIRC, a Russian Commander at Kursk specifically requested Slavic reinforcements because the Muslim forces he had received were no good). A large portion of the Muslims captured by the Germans agreed to serve in the German forces. Rates of Military collaboration by Soviet and Balkan Muslims were much higher than by non-Muslims from Russia, the Ukraine, or the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
--I would be careful not to draw broad conclusions from the example of the 'Hanschar' formations in the Waffen-SS. They had their own agenda, a continuation of the internecine hillbilly warfare that has plagued the area for centuries. It goes back much further, but the modern Croat history starts with Stepan Radič and continues through Ante Pavelič.
This again goes to the point that Muslim allegiance had little to do with pro- or anti-Nazi sentiment, but rather with local political realities. Nationalism was a much stronger politically motivating force for these people than religion.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
On the human level and the cinematic scale of “Free Men,” Stora’s judgment has been wholly validated. And in the historical context, Satloff writes in “Among the Righteous” that albeit in very modest numbers, it can be demonstrated that during “Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews.”

http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all
The bolded seems to support my thesis, not yours. More on the movie below.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
last post, as this is #4. But this is a good one

Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim ...
... "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians
Anecdotes about rare individuals do nothing to prove generalizations about Muslims as a whole. If anything the quote seems to indicate N I Khan felt that, in general, Indian Muslims were not doing anything brave to support the allied war effort, which again goes more to support my position than yours.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Many Muslims from the Indian sub-continent, possibly at least 1 million served in WW2 in the fight against Axis powers
Note that "Axis powers" includes includes Japan, and most of the Muslims were employed in home defence, remote colonial defence, or against Japan, not against Germany.

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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet View Post
You realize that your attempt to paint Muslims as monolithically virtuous is just as offensive as opposing attempts to paint them as vicious Antisemities, right?

Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
+1

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
... I'm taking this from a new approach, Im fully aware some Muslims gave up Jews during WW2. I'm not here to glorify Islam anymore, lets have an adult conversation and forget about internet scoring points.
I fear that if you've given up trying to glorify Islam we'll have nothing to discuss. As I have said, nobody disputes that there were some Muslims who helped Jews, or that some of those risked their lives to do so. We just dispute that they were in any way typical of Muslim behaviour in general or significant in terms of either numbers of saviours or of saved. I suppose we also deplore your choice of sources, and interpretation thereof.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
You can join this other history forum where the discussion is more illuminating then here.
Link?

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Also folks there is a popular movie called Free men which almost mimics my my viewpoints of how Muslims truly reacted to the persecution of Jews in not only Muslim lands, but in Paris, France as well. I was speechless when I came across the film thinking, how is it possible to find this gem when I'm on an internet forum having this exact discussion. The movies message is incredible, to say the least. Free Men is based on true stories as well, All the points that I make itt, the film hits on. The film is on netflix and its a must watch for anyone who is slightly interested in the subject of history.
...
This is not some B grade movie, well known actors signed on. This is a film based on true stories and is the best WW2 film I have seen since the likes of Saving Private Ryan.
Why are you citing a popular movie as a source? This is typical of the historical invalidity of your sources. I'm glad you compared it to "Saving Private Ryan". SPR was "based on" a historical event but was pure fiction. Tactics, doctrine, events, equipment and interpretations portrayed in it were all historically inaccurate. (The opening scenes sure "felt" real though!)
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:48 PM   #47
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

I brought up the film Free Men because its based on true stories and is actually a decent tool to take a look at this subject with.

DTM, like I said I'm fine with w/e you have to say. Of course your post is so long, that is may just be the longest post you have made on this forum, itr, Well done my friend.

All I can say is did you get the chance to see my other history thread on the armchair general forum ? Its a forum dedicating to history and quite possible one of the best history forums around. Take no offense to the following but in the armchair general thread, there are differing views then what you are presenting itt. Members of the armchair forum more or less agree that millions of Muslims actually did more to assist Jews and Allies (much more) then the thousands of Muslims who fought with the Axis powers under the guise of a psychopath, this a key and IMO should not overlooked.

Prior to the creation of modern day Israel and modern day discrimination from both sides, Muslims and Jews lived liked brothers for a 1000 years in many, many more areas(Middle East, North Africa) then is the case now. At times, modern day news outlets run stories meant to marginalize either/both Islam or Judaism prior to the creation of modern day Israel. Unfortunate instances did occur between these two groups but much of the relationships between Jews and Muslims thru history were positive.

I have 26 posts or w/e the count is because I'm very much interested in this subject and gaining knowledge on the issue, that's why I posted itt. If folks want to agree or disagree with my points, or just add new information then this would be appreciated.

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Old 01-05-2014, 01:17 PM   #48
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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He was in WW2 and coincidentally (or perhaps not so coincidentally) served in every part of North Africa to which German forces had been deployed. His 93rd birthday passed a couple of months ago, yet he's still as sharp as he was 15 years ago.
As a side note

93 years young, this is very nice to hear Send your father my appreciation for his service in the army/navy. Whichever branch he may have been in.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:36 PM   #49
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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No, we aren't deciders of history. All we can do is cite sources and let people draw conclusions. I cite the leading authorities, government documents and professional historians. You cite youtube and anonymous poster on another unnamed forum.
o or three.

My youtube videos were not created by youtube, rather documentations of Jews/Muslims from the WW2 era.

Like I said I'm not going to get upset with you anymore, but please lay off posts like the one you make above. The movie I linked is based on true stories, you should watch it if your interested in the subject of history, its a fascinating look into Paris France during WW2.

Ben Ghabrit, although required to collaborate with the Nazi-controlled French Vichy government, was also a close friend of Mohammed V, King of Morocco. The latter monarch’s laudable efforts to protect his Jewish subjects during the Second World War have led to his name, among others, currently being bruited about to be named one of the “Righteous Among the Nations,” an initiative that Shimon Peres reportedly supports. As Eva Weisel pointed out in a December 28 Op-Ed in The New York Times, getting Yad Vashem to grant the honorific to a Muslim seems to be unusually difficult.

Ben Ghabrit did indeed save Halali by issuing him a false certificate of Muslim religion to mislead the Nazis. To back up this document, the name of Halali’s father was even inscribed on a blank headstone in the Muslim cemetery of the Parisian suburb of Bobigny.


Do the Math, did you expect these Arabs to try and kill/injure SS troops while in Paris, France? Almost certainly this would have led to more Jews dying. Some Muslims in Paris, France were able to hoodwink Nazis and in turn, save Jews. There were Arab/Muslim freedom fighters who joined the resistance during occupied France as well.

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...#ixzz2pVLMrtzE


Do the Math I'm coming from the position of bringing Jews and Muslims together thru positive stories. The heroic actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2 have been largely forgotten, I will always remember the actions of some of these Arab/Muslim heroes and I'm glad I have stumbled upon this subject. It wasnt just because of Islam, human spirit played a role in the decisions of Muslims to hide Jews, provide false documentation to Jews to disguise them as Muslims, I will never forget these heroes.

We have to balance the thousands of Muslims who fought for Axis forces compared to the Millions who fought against Hitler and the holocaust. Also in Albania, at the start of the war there were 200 Jews, and the end of the war there were 2000 Jews. I will never forget the actions of these amazing people who protected Jews at there own risk. I will trust the words of the Jews who were their at the time of Kristallnacht Albania.

Here are a few sources I have used.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml

http://www.ajr.org.uk/journal/issue.Apr10/article.5343

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp

http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...-kristallnacht

The Albanian government refused to cooperate with the Nazis, telling them there were no Jews in the country, Neumann said. So the Nazis did their own search, going house to house to house, including the one Neumann's family was staying with in 1943. The Albanian family introduced Neumann's family as relatives from Germany, staving off the Nazi forces.

At that time, Muslims faced little prejudice, Neumann said, and she's found it disheartening how people today stereotype those of Islamic faith based on the actions of extremists.

"Because someone happens to be a Muslim doesn't mean he also happens to be a terrorist," she said. "It's really deplorable. We cannot as a society distinguish between good and bad. We are so prejudiced."

Members of FAU's Jewish Culture Society felt it was important to spotlight "this important and little known chapter of history," Group President Evelyn Solomon said.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:09 PM   #50
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Do the Math, here is the other history forum I was talking about

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674

I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread. Believe it or not, my thread on armchair general is independent of my religious views and was created for the sole reason of gaining knowledge on the issue.

I signed up on armchair general for the specific purpose of forgetting about religion and focusing on the issue of how Arabs/Muslims reacted to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts.
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:17 PM   #51
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=143674&page=2

The only known SS unit in Africa was actually a SD detachment, Sonderkommando or Einsatzkommando Tunis, which numbered no more than 100 men and was operational for only six months. All sources on the issue are in agreement about this. It wasn't exactly a powerful outfit.

I find no source whatsoever confirming that this unit carried out any direct killings, even though there are newspaper sources claiming that Jews died in labor camps. The SD did in fact round up Jews for use as forced labor in building fortifications; the same was done, however, with other civilians.

Where and when Arab Muslims saved Jewish communities from these arrests and from the killings you allege? What exactly was done? How many Jews were saved, how many non-Jews were involved, what was the German reaction to this opposition?


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Old 01-05-2014, 10:08 PM   #52
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Women like Noor Inayat Khan, who served as an SOE agent in occupied France to work with the French Resistance. She died in doing so refusing to give up her accomplishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan

I was also unaware the actions of some immigrant Muslims in Paris, France during WW2, who for example, created documents listing Jews as Muslims. This information was brought to light on my other history forums. I know some Muslims did infact persecute Jews, but one must balance this with the Muslims who fought against Hitler and the Holocaust. The movie Free Men(it can be seen on Netflix) is based on true stories of how Muslims helped to save Jews in Paris, France.

Here’s one they left out of the history textbooks. A recent French film, Free Men, brought to light the remarkable true history of how Muslims gave sanctuary to French Jews in Nazi-occupied Paris during Second World War. An untold “Oscar Schindler” story, the film is inspired by actual events and in this case, our ‘Schindler’ is Si Kaddour Benghabrit, the rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris until 1954.

http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/0...th-muslim-ids/

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:14 PM   #53
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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[

No problem but if your going to play that game, from the armchair thread

I wish all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, all members of all religions were more like the Muslims in WWII who assisted Jews in their escape from Hitler, and the Jews who supported the Muslims and befriended them for doing so. It proves that, as I stated, we are all humans and all capable of compassion. "I don't agree with what you believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it." To paraphrase Voltaire.




---And as has been pointed out all of that needs to be balanced against the millions who served in the Allied forces.



----Taieb el-Okbi was a member of Algerian Islah (Reform) Party, and a friend of the prominent Algerian reformist Abdelhamid Ben Badis, who was tolerant to different religions and cultures. Ben Badis founded and directed the Algerian League of Muslims and Jews. He died before Vichy forces occupied Algeria, but Taieb el-Okbi took his place. Taieb el-Okbi discovered that the leaders of the pro-fascist group the Légion Français des Combattants were planning a Jewish pogrom with the help of Muslim troops. He did everything he could to prevent it and ordered Muslims not to attack Jews. His actions were compared to French archbishops Jules-Géraud Saliège and Pierre-Marie Gerlier, both of whom saved some Jews in France.





---"The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941. "

--- "Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."

I can do this too

Husker, we both know some Muslims gave up Jews During WW2, but this most be balanced with the Millions of Muslims who fought against Hitler and the Holocaust, along with Muslims who risked life by disguising Jews as Muslims with false documentation. At the Mosque in Paris, France (while under German occupation) Muslims actually harbored Jews, in my view instances like these are great positive stories for bringing people together.

Underneath the fortress of mosaics and tranquil gardens occupying an entire city block in the Latin Quarter, it is revealed the mosque’s underground caverns once served as a refuge for resistance fighters and French Jews, where they could be provided with certificates of Muslim identity. Meanwhile upstairs, Benghabrit, a wise Algerian-born religious and political leader, was giving tours of the mosque to Nazi officers and their wives, unaware of what was transpiring right under their feet.


http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/0...th-muslim-ids/

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:16 PM   #54
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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My youtube videos were not created by youtube, rather documentations of Jews/Muslims from the WW2 era.
AFAIK, Youtube doesn't create any content. It just appropriates it. I was suggesting that either the creator of the original documentary, or perhaps the person who edited out the credits (and maybe several more minutes of content?) and posted it, was manipulating the presentation of testimony to try to make a case that is not actually supported by the testimony or totality of evidence available.

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Do the Math, did you expect these Arabs to try and kill/injure SS troops while in Paris, France?
No. I don't believe engaging in combat is the only way one qualifies for heroism.

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Do the Math I'm coming from the position of bringing Jews and Muslims together thru positive stories.
Good luck with that. Sadly, I doubt that citation of a few isolated anecdotal incidents will achieve such an aim. The problem, as was raised both here and on the other forum, is that the numerical scale of Muslim heroism saving Jews from the Holocaust is immaterially small, especially when balanced against the similar number of Jews killed by Muslims or due to Muslim betrayals. But the true tale is that the degree of Muslim involvement in sending to or saving from is minuscule (to use your word) compared to the non-involvement of nearly all Muslims in the matter.

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The heroic actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2 have been largely forgotten,
True enough, and as one poster in the other forum said, that might be the positive value of that thread - to remind people that Muslim-Jewish relations were not always in the state they are today.

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We have to balance the thousands of Muslims who fought for Axis forces compared to the Millions who fought against Hitler and the holocaust.
You're doing it again. First of all, if you are simply comparing headcount, then the correct formulation is "compare the hundreds of thousands who fought for the Axis compared to the millions who fought for the Allies". Give the correct order of magnitude of the comparison and don't use loaded language to describe one side. But secondly, I doubt those numbers mean very much. Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.

Finally, the number of Muslims who fought for each side are not really germane to your original points here, which was rescue of individuals by individual action, not overthrow of regimes by mass military action. When I first raised the issue of Muslim enlistment, I restricted it to the 22K Yugoslav Muslims in the SS, not the many hundreds of thousands who served in the Axis armies worldwide, because of the association of the SS with anti-Jewish oppression, and the involvement of the Yugoslavian Muslim SS with arrests of Jews.

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Also in Albania, at the start of the war there were 200 Jews, and the end of the war there were 2000 Jews.
24 at the 1930 census. Jewish refugees started arriving under King Zog's program before war officially broke out, so the original wave of refugees may well have raised the count above 200 by the time of the Italian invasion. More like a few over 1800 at the end of the war. References to 2000 are rounding to the nearest thousand. 1800 gives us one more digit of precision.

Compare these "sources" with the sort of sources I give. I list primary documents, government records and publications by authorities and historians. You cite works of journalism and entertainment. Turn on a TV (it seems you are in the US) and you will find all sort of "documentaries" about ghosts, aliens, and conspiracy theories. Most of the media exist to sell advertising. They care about audience interest more than accuracy. Controversy is great. Historians OTOH are all about the accurate interpretation of the past. That's not to say that all broadcast documentaries are inaccurate and all historians are correct, but frankly you'll make a more convincing point if a consensus of professional historians backs you up. Rather than seize on an entertaining piece and treat it as unvarnished truth, you should see what multiple reputable historians say about it. If you are indeed in America, spend more time in university libraries and less time on Youtube and Wikipedia.

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Do the Math, here is the other history forum I was talking about

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674
Thanks for the link. I've read that forum from time to time because there is a little bit of gold to be panned from amongst the dross. Before it got derailed by a racist, and sidetracked by those with their own agenda, it didn't seem to support your positions here very much. Indeed you got a bit of a rough ride there too for a bit until a couple came riding to your rescue with points that don't really pertain to your original propositions here.

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I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread.
Too embarrassed? OK, I won't blow your cover if you behave on 2+2. Otherwise, no commitments.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:29 PM   #55
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Here are the words of a North African Jew, Albert Assouline, who escaped from a German Prison camp and found refuge at the Paris Mosque,

“No fewer than 1,732 resistance fighters found refuge in its underground caverns. These included Muslim escapees but also Christians and Jews. The latter were by far the most numerous.”

These are brave actions in my view and these immigrant Muslims who protected Jews in WW2 France should be commended as Heroes.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:20 PM   #56
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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end more time in university libraries and less time on Youtube and Wikipedia.

Thanks for the link. I've read that forum from time to time because there is a little bit of gold to be panned from amongst the dross. Before it got derailed by a racist, and sidetracked by those with their own agenda, it didn't seem to support your positions here very much. Indeed you got a bit of a rough ride there too for a bit until a couple came riding to your rescue with points that don't really pertain to your original propositions here.

Hey your entitled to your viewpoint, have you thought about posting on armchair to see what folks there think of your views on how Arabs reacted during WW2. There is one guy itt going on about Israel. Thankfully the Mod came in and had this to say,

This thread is about Muslims saving Jews during World War II, it has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel, Orthodox Jews and Muslims in present day UK, liberal political correctness or the rest. If you want to debate this stuff take it to politics central or another forum altogether.

ACG staff




Their are a multitude of posters on ACG who have listed instances of Arabs/Muslims fighting against Axis Powers and the Holocaust. I am so pleased with the responses on this excellent history forum. Which delves into many, many areas of history. It felt so good seeing folks link historic facts of how Arabs/Muslims fought against Nazis and the holocaust.

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:32 PM   #57
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

A response from the Armchair thread

Saide Arifova (c. 1916 – 9 August 2007) was a Crimean Tatar woman from Bakhchisaray, Crimea, Ukraine who saved more than 88 Crimean Jews in 1942–1943,for which she was honored as one of the Righteous Among the Nations. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea during World War II, she worked as a kindergarten director and managed to forge documents, sourcing Jewish children's ethnicity. She also managed to conceal children from Kerch orphanage, who were prepared to be sent to Germany for inhuman medical experimentation. Nazis considered her suspect and tortured her.


Without a doubt, this Muslim woman, Saide Afrove was a hero to humanity.

http://dokter-hanny.blogspot.com/201...ah-crimea.html

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:58 PM   #58
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Are you a professor of History Do the Math? I thought you previously mentioned that you happen to have much interest in WW2, mainly the areas of Europe, is this correct? As opposed to being a teacher that is.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:58 PM   #59
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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AFAIK, Youtube doesn't create any content. It just appropriates it. I was suggesting that either the creator of the original documentary, or perhaps the person who edited out the credits (and maybe several more minutes of content?) and posted it, was manipulating the presentation of testimony to try to make a case that is not actually supported by the testimony or totality of evidence available.
when I see Jews saying they were protected by X this will be good enough for me
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No. I don't believe engaging in combat is the only way one qualifies for heroism.
Good, well said. The action of the Imam of the Paris Mosque was heroic, setting up a fake gravestone for a Jewish singer, and then knowing that to this day, that gravestone still stands.

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Good luck with that. Sadly, I doubt that citation of a few isolated anecdotal incidents will achieve such an aim. The problem, as was raised both here and on the other forum, is that the numerical scale of Muslim heroism saving Jews from the Holocaust is immaterially small, especially when balanced against the similar number of Jews killed by Muslims or due to Muslim betrayals. But the true tale is that the degree of Muslim involvement in sending to or saving from is minuscule (to use your word) compared to the non-involvement of nearly all Muslims in the matter.
And again, we have to balance how many more Muslims fought with the Allied side as opposed to the Axis side. What is your theseis anyways, that Muslims did not do enough or that they(majority) sided with the Axis forces? Why do you want to go down this route? Under the guise of history or rather being politically correct.
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True enough, and as one poster in the other forum said, that might be the positive value of that thread - to remind people that Muslim-Jewish relations were not always in the state they are today.
Well said, its a shame to see how discrimination comes from both sides today, when for years prior to 1949 Muslims and Jews lived (in many cases) in harmony.

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You're doing it again. First of all, if you are simply comparing headcount, then the correct formulation is "compare the hundreds of thousands who fought for the Axis compared to the millions who fought for the Allies". Give the correct order of magnitude of the comparison and don't use loaded language to describe one side. But secondly, I doubt those numbers mean very much. Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.
Where are these Hundreds of Thousands of Axis soldiers, are they from India or Europe? Or Russia? I'm not using loaded language but rather, I'm trying to gain knowledge on this issue. Wait a second so your saying those in the Indian army were only fighting Axis forces because they were forced too? I highly disagree and would imagine the many brave Indian Muslims who fought against Axis forces would also disagree. Especially the likes of Woman like Noor Inayat Khan, who served as an SOE agent in occupied France to work with the French Resistance. She died in doing so refusing to give up her accomplishes. And the fact that you are using her words to somehow state not enough Indians did something is merely an opinion, as opposed to being anything grounded in fact. As we know Spies, are at risk of dying w/o folks knowing the real reasons and what not, I could imagine there were other Noor Inayat Khans in WW2, a true heroin , A Muslim women who had such incredible bravery.

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Old 01-06-2014, 01:59 PM   #60
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

and there is more

The Muslims

There aren't many stories that show up when one starts to research the Holocaust in the Arab world. At least not ones that speak of heroism that is. Yet when you start to dig a little it isn't hard to find such stories these days. The accounts of Muslims saving Jewish lives are prolific. And they aren't simply confined to North Africa and the Middle East either.


Necdet Kent

In 1943 Mr Kent was given his first real challenge when faced with Germany's genocide of the Jewish people. Having been informed that the Gestapo had loaded 80 Turkish Jews onto a cattle car for deportation, Mr Kent went down to the station. He would later recall that the cattle car bore an inscription that stated "this wagon may be loaded with 20 heads of cattle and 500kgs of grass". Yet here he stood in front of a Gestapo commandant with a cattle car loaded with Jewish prisoners.

However the Germans laughed in his face and told Mr Kent that the Jews were nothing but worthless Jews. Furious, Mr Kent and his assistant boarded the train and refused to get off the train.


Unable to get Mr Kent off the train and realizing that the Turkish diplomat was bound to remain uncompromising in his stance, the Gestapo allowed the 80 Jewish prisoners to get off as well. Mr Kent would later state:

"I would never forget those embraces around our necks and hands ... the expressions of gratitude in the eyes of the people we rescued ... the inner peace I felt when I reached my bed towards morning."

Could one imagine, the courage it took to do this.

Abdol Hossein Sardari

An ever vigilant defender of Iranian Jews, of which there were a sizable amount in Paris, Mr Sardari insured that every Persian Jew he could contact had a viable Iranian passport. For the Persian Jews that did not, Mr Sardari readily forged documents and passports for them. Violating laws and international agreements, Mr Sardari managed to save Persian Jews while holding Germany to it's word.

As the occupation dragged on Abdol Hossein Sardari began to realize the complete picture of what Germany had in store for Europe's Jews. Slowly he began issuing Iranian passports and documents to non-Persian Jews across Paris.


Source- http://aldersledge.blogspot.com/2013...righteous.html

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