The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews
Because you don't deserve more.
To clarify, my view is if European populations included more Muslims during WW2, especially the likes of Albanian Muslims, who are some of the greatest heroes to live, that more Jews would have lived. Tom Friedman, Mehdi Hassan, Gilbert Achcar, the Jews and Muslims who were like brothers in WW2, and more seem to agree with me. Its just a great side to be on Popeye, I support these type of people and will continue to make sure their names get out.
For instance, it is reported by reliable sources that there was no evidence a Jew was turned over to the Nazis in Albania, in WW2.
For instance, it is reported by reliable sources that there was no evidence a Jew was turned over to the Nazis in Albania, in WW2.
In a sense, I'm glad you continue to respond like this, rather then responding to the details of my videos, testimonials, historic facts. I would think, in at least one of your responses to me you could have something more then one or two lines. Yet its continued to be more funny stuff. Your a funny guy Husker, tho I will say family guy is a decent show.
Do the math, here is a piece which is very critical of modern day Muslims. Yet there is no denying history even by this writer.
http://www.projetaladin.org/holocaus...d-muslims.html
http://www.projetaladin.org/holocaus...d-muslims.html
Muslims within the British or Russian Empires tended to mostly overtly support their rulers despite whatever internal views they held. (Despite this, a significant portion of the Indian National Amy fighting with the Japanese against the British were Muslims. This was more a product of available recruiting opportunities than a general Muslim view, however. The British considered the Muslims more reliable than most Hindus, and received more overt political support from Muslim parties.) Muslims in Yugoslavia tended to support the Germans, primarily in opposition to Serbs and Communists. Muslims within the borders of the former Kingdom of Albania and in North Africa and the Middle East tended to distrust both sides (with good reason IMO) and just wanted to be left alone and become independent.
There was a high desertion rate once it became clear the war was lost and Tito issued a general amnesty. Because of the desertion rate, the Germans considered disbanding the Division in late 1944, but decided against it.
Of course not. I use the best, most reputable sources - the experts in their field. I try to avoid biased, agenda-driven sources. You should try this too. Might make you more believable than citing the drivel you have presented in this thread.
I am not a Zionist. I am somebody who agrees with the statement that some Muslims risked their lives to save Jews from Germans or Italians in WWII. 60 Muslims. All in Europe. I also agree that Muslims and Jews often co-existed peacefully in Muslim-dominated North Africa. I also agree with nearly everything you have quoted from Gilbert Achcar up to and including post 15. However, what he says does nothing to support the OP. The spin you seem to have been trying to put on the thread at the beginning is wrong, and many of the statements you made are factually false.
I am also somebody who has come to the conclusion that you are a troll. I've read every post you have made in History and in RGT, and many of your other posts on 2+2. Every thread you have started in the two named fora is controversialist, backed by dubious sources, ignores mainstream sources, is full of non-sequiturs and dubious logic, and contains just enough truth to seem credible to the uninfomed. When faced with solid contrary evidence you change the topic. All of these are classic troll behaviour.
All 60 of them? Good. Their deeds deserve to be remembered. Will you also remember the > 22,000 Muslims who volunteered to serve in the SS? You should. And when trying to put a general characterization to Muslim attitudes towards Jews and Nazis in Europe, remember that ratio - 60:22,000. And when you remember the 22 Albanians among those 60, remember the roughly two dozen Jewish refugees murdered by Albanians, and the hundreds of Jews arrested by Albanians and subsequently deported to German extermination camps where many were killed.
Only one source? I can do better than that.
For documented cases of people risking their lives (or not risking their lives) to save Jews, the definitive source, the only organization tasked with investigating every claim of such support and documenting every instance - Yad Vashem.
For documented cases of people risking their lives (or not risking their lives) to save Jews, the definitive source, the only organization tasked with investigating every claim of such support and documenting every instance - Yad Vashem.
For Muslim recruitment into 13th and 21st Waffen SS Mountain Divisions, their involvement in the arrest of Jews, murder and rapes of civilians and other crimes, too many sources to list all, but including:
Die deutschen Kriegsgefangenen in Jugoslawien 1941–1949, Kurt Boehme
Totenkopf und Edelweiss: General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgsverbände der Waffen-SS im Partisanenkampf auf dem Balkan 1942–1945, Roland Kaltenegger
Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943–1945, George Lepre (definitive English-language source on 13th SS)
Muslimansko Autonomastvo I 13. SS Divizija, Enver Redzic
Organizational History of the German SS Formations 1939–1945, George Nafziger
The Waffen SS (3): 11. to 23. Divisions and German Mountain & Ski Troops 1939–45, Gordon Williamson
Die deutschen Kriegsgefangenen in Jugoslawien 1941–1949, Kurt Boehme
Totenkopf und Edelweiss: General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgsverbände der Waffen-SS im Partisanenkampf auf dem Balkan 1942–1945, Roland Kaltenegger
Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943–1945, George Lepre (definitive English-language source on 13th SS)
Muslimansko Autonomastvo I 13. SS Divizija, Enver Redzic
Organizational History of the German SS Formations 1939–1945, George Nafziger
The Waffen SS (3): 11. to 23. Divisions and German Mountain & Ski Troops 1939–45, Gordon Williamson
What is this? Of course there were some Muslims who gave up Jews. There were also Jews who gave up Jews in WW2. It seems you are letting your love for Israel blind you, I noted this when you said in your first response here how Muslims have always attacked Israel, What the? Israel/Palestine was for a long time a Christian State as well as a Muslim state.
Finally, to deal with the Youtube video you reference in post 12 (also in the OP):
A close examination of the video itself makes it clear it is not a definitive source. The video is posted by a anonymous user with screen name RighteousMuslim. It is edited to omit any credits. It doesn't cite any authoratative source to support its claims, and the only authoritative source it does cite disputes its claims. It tries to build a general case from a small amount of anecdotal evidence. Paying close attention to the video reveals that investigation found that no risk was assumed by any Muslim referenced.
A close examination of the video itself makes it clear it is not a definitive source. The video is posted by a anonymous user with screen name RighteousMuslim. It is edited to omit any credits. It doesn't cite any authoratative source to support its claims, and the only authoritative source it does cite disputes its claims. It tries to build a general case from a small amount of anecdotal evidence. Paying close attention to the video reveals that investigation found that no risk was assumed by any Muslim referenced.
On youtube most people don't post with there real name. There were other documentations I listed as well which you completely ignored. Let me explain something to you, what your engaging in here, is the same as myself saying most Jews poisoned water wells in Palestine pre 1949 and drank the blood of their Muslim enemies children. Keep that in mind
In the particular case of Khaled Abdul-Whahab, cited at 5:30 in the video, the video make a number of false, misleading and inflammatory statements. It claims that two Jewish families were hiding from the Germans in stables owned by Abdul-Whahab on his home property. In fact, Abdul-Wahab was friendly with the Germans. The Jews were not hiding. The Germans knew the Jews were being accommodated in the stables, and approved (perhaps thinking stables were more appropriate for Jews than the houses from which the Germans had removed them in order to accommodate their own troops). The women and children were generally not permitted to leave the property, but the men in the two families were required to report for forced labour assignments. The Germans came by regularly (weekly IIRC) to check that none of the Jews had been allowed to escape. During these inspections the Jews had to present themselves for roll-call, wearing their yellow stars, ofc. The only thing Abdul-Whahab saved any Jews from was once a friendly (to him) visiting German officer got drunk and went out to the stable and subjected a young woman to a drunken harangue for about two hours. Eventually Abdul-Whahab came out of the house and took the drunk German back to the house or sent him back to base. Legally, the German was in more peril than the frightened young woman. If he was going to act on any of his threats he wouldn't have waited two hour. The young woman looked upon this as a friendly intervention by Abdul-Whahab, but I think the facts are easy to interpret as Abdul-Whahab running a mini forced labour camp for the benefit of the Germans, and one wonders why he let the German verbally torment the woman for so long. The video refers to this incident as "the women and children almost came to grief", yet there is no evidence that there was any actual danger beyond drunk threats. The Jews in the stable would not be in a position to know that Abdul-Wahab was being paid a stipend by the Germans for providing food and shelter.
And what about the Jews in the documentary. Were they lying about how one of them were almost raped by a German officer? Were these Jews paid to say that Muslims helped to protect them in WW2. A whole bunch of Muslims fought for the Allies during WW2. It was a great majority as well. This is partly why only 1% of Jews disappeared in Muslim majority countries compared to 50%, again 50% in European countries.
Rest assured Do the math, I will not be draining any more time with you. Not because I don't like you or these massive posts. But I have my views and you have yours. It appears we will simply have to agree to disagree. It would be unhealthy to continue for both of us here, IMO
u didnt answer that question. i can post a wikilink to oskar schindler, doesnt make enough for a "The Heroic actions of germans during WW2 to save Jews" thread right" ? albania was invaded by italy and had ~200 jews. thats a whole different situation then in the rest of europe. u make a ton of these "islam is great" threads/post ignoring the reality pretty hard imo. lets ask the people in the sudan how these muslims "save" their lifes givin them the sharia.
How does a history thread have 30 replies so fast? Is it because we are dealing with the topic of Islam and or Israel. When it comes to Islam or Israel people seem to go nuts. Its about finding common ground and when have historic facts of how only 1% of Jews disappeared in Muslim majority countries during ww2, I believe this is a instance which is suppose to unite as opposed to divide.
I do not know who mods this forum, but if you have any hope of retaining any integrity as a history forum you will kick this thread over to RGT where it belongs.
What the heck Dereds, aren't you Irish? I like Ireland, Not that this has anything to do with this conversation.
I feel very comfortable with my OP and you have every right to disagree. Still, unless some compelling evidence is brought fourth in which negates my evidence of how only 1% of Jews died in Muslim Majority countries, or if someone can show how Jews were lying about how Muslims saved them during WW2. Do you really want to go down this route?
I mean do you want to go down the route of saying Muslims slaughtered Jews during WW2 as opposed to saving them? This upsets people because it goes against 1%, it goes against testimonials of Jews and quite honestly it seeks to divide. We know some Muslims gave up Jews, we also know some Jews gave up Jews during WW2. I mean my god tho, people blow up this conversation sometimes, but when you read the OP you will note I'm not saying nasty things about people. I'm actually saying Muslims and Jews worked together during WW2 and I will continue to link stories of Muslims and Jews working together in this thread of that thread.
In any event Dereds, good luck in your life.
I feel very comfortable with my OP and you have every right to disagree. Still, unless some compelling evidence is brought fourth in which negates my evidence of how only 1% of Jews died in Muslim Majority countries, or if someone can show how Jews were lying about how Muslims saved them during WW2. Do you really want to go down this route?
I mean do you want to go down the route of saying Muslims slaughtered Jews during WW2 as opposed to saving them? This upsets people because it goes against 1%, it goes against testimonials of Jews and quite honestly it seeks to divide. We know some Muslims gave up Jews, we also know some Jews gave up Jews during WW2. I mean my god tho, people blow up this conversation sometimes, but when you read the OP you will note I'm not saying nasty things about people. I'm actually saying Muslims and Jews worked together during WW2 and I will continue to link stories of Muslims and Jews working together in this thread of that thread.
In any event Dereds, good luck in your life.
RLK, its a history thread which discusses actions during WW2. Nevertheless I'm just about done with this discussion. It doesn't seem like there will be fresh opinions anyways.
I wanted to add one more thing,
When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.
I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.
Whats interesting is when it comes to issues like the Vietnam War, we know both sides committed "war crimes" and whats even more interesting is that I don't mind saying some Americans did this or that in a negative manner. But at the same time, admittedly, I have a difficult time recognizing how some Arab Muslims supported Nazis during WW2.
When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.
I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.
Whats interesting is when it comes to issues like the Vietnam War, we know both sides committed "war crimes" and whats even more interesting is that I don't mind saying some Americans did this or that in a negative manner. But at the same time, admittedly, I have a difficult time recognizing how some Arab Muslims supported Nazis during WW2.
Whats interesting is when it comes to issues like the Vietnam War, we know both sides committed "war crimes" and whats even more interesting is that I don't mind saying some Americans did this or that in a negative manner. But at the same time, admittedly, I have a difficult time recognizing how some Arab Muslims supported Nazis during WW2.
Antisemitism became considerably more widespread after WWII when Britain became more overtly supportive of an independent Jewish State, which was seen potentially as a Western proxy in the region.
Overall I find this to be a very poor thread that reduces people to mere religious affiliation without taking larger trends into consideration.
As a side note I recently joined a very good, well known History forum. Responses include the point that Millions of Muslims fought for the allied forces during ww2 compared to the thousands who fought with the Axis forces.
While some Muslims did assist in the murder of Jews during WW2 under the advice of a psychopath. A far great majority more Muslims despised Hitler and fought against him.
Its also due to the human qualities of these Arabs/Muslims, not just Islam.
While some Muslims did assist in the murder of Jews during WW2 under the advice of a psychopath. A far great majority more Muslims despised Hitler and fought against him.
Its also due to the human qualities of these Arabs/Muslims, not just Islam.
It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend if you look at it behind the 2-dimensional view that is being presented ITT. Arab leaders tended to be pro-Nazi not out of any particular animus toward Jews, but rather as part of a comprehensive anti-British view that is understandable given British imperial policy in the region.
To address Do the Math
To be fair, CI, the majority of Muslims who served with the Germans during World War II, did so due to long-standing internal ethnic cleavages which existed, primarily within Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. The main focus was ongoing ethnic rivalries, especially between the Croats and Bosnians on one side and the Serbs on the other as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Religion was really a secondary element. As for the 13th SS, it had both Bosnian Muslim and Croat Catholic personnel and a large contingent of Volkdeutsch. It also had the dubious record of having had a mutiny in 1943 involving both Muslim and Catholic officers who wanted to join the French partisans. Let's also keep in mind the Zeleni Kadar [Green cadres] - a Muslim militia in Bosnia which also joined the partisans.
I went at this thread with a different approach( In a minor way) and its working out really nicely. I'm going to go ahead and take a step back here and say lets forget about religion here and simply discuss the subject of Arab reactions to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts in WW2. Lets just say I'm more relaxed then ever and don't mind if folks disagree in any way.
The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.549718
"Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp
A reply from my other history thread,
--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part. The fact is hundreds of thousands of Muslims took part in putting an end to Hitler and the Holocaust - by serving in the Soviet army. They were Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tatars, Kirghiz, Tadjiks and others. They helped liberate the death camps. Their contribution should not be forgotten simply because they remain nameless in the Western world.
--I would be careful not to draw broad conclusions from the example of the 'Hanschar' formations in the Waffen-SS. They had their own agenda, a continuation of the internecine hillbilly warfare that has plagued the area for centuries. It goes back much further, but the modern Croat history starts with Stepan Radič and continues through Ante Pavelič.
During the war, the Serbs were split into factions between the Karađorđević Četniks and Tito's Partisans. The former were initially armed and supported by the British while the Partisans were being supplied by the Soviets — Tito was a Communist with credentials. The British sent a mission led by Fitzroy MacLean, who reported to London that the Partisans were hunting Germans and the Četniks were hunting Partisans and the Handschar were hunting them both, at least until the Četniks signed up with the Germans.
It's rather complicated, and nothing at all like the situation between Arabs (Muslims) and Jews in other parts of the world. There it was more straightforward. Muslims and Jews were neighbours and friends, where the Nazis were interlopers that threatened their community.
Here is a film(with well known actors) based on the actions of Muslims in Paris during WW2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcLIihCoaA
On the human level and the cinematic scale of “Free Men,” Stora’s judgment has been wholly validated. And in the historical context, Satloff writes in “Among the Righteous” that albeit in very modest numbers, it can be demonstrated that during “Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews.”
http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.549718
"Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp
A reply from my other history thread,
--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part. The fact is hundreds of thousands of Muslims took part in putting an end to Hitler and the Holocaust - by serving in the Soviet army. They were Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tatars, Kirghiz, Tadjiks and others. They helped liberate the death camps. Their contribution should not be forgotten simply because they remain nameless in the Western world.
--I would be careful not to draw broad conclusions from the example of the 'Hanschar' formations in the Waffen-SS. They had their own agenda, a continuation of the internecine hillbilly warfare that has plagued the area for centuries. It goes back much further, but the modern Croat history starts with Stepan Radič and continues through Ante Pavelič.
During the war, the Serbs were split into factions between the Karađorđević Četniks and Tito's Partisans. The former were initially armed and supported by the British while the Partisans were being supplied by the Soviets — Tito was a Communist with credentials. The British sent a mission led by Fitzroy MacLean, who reported to London that the Partisans were hunting Germans and the Četniks were hunting Partisans and the Handschar were hunting them both, at least until the Četniks signed up with the Germans.
It's rather complicated, and nothing at all like the situation between Arabs (Muslims) and Jews in other parts of the world. There it was more straightforward. Muslims and Jews were neighbours and friends, where the Nazis were interlopers that threatened their community.
Here is a film(with well known actors) based on the actions of Muslims in Paris during WW2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcLIihCoaA
On the human level and the cinematic scale of “Free Men,” Stora’s judgment has been wholly validated. And in the historical context, Satloff writes in “Among the Righteous” that albeit in very modest numbers, it can be demonstrated that during “Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews.”
http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all
last post, as this is #4. But this is a good one
Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim woman who worked as an Allied SOE agent side during WW2, she was awarded the George Cross, a UK civilian honor. Which is the highest civilian honor in the UK, AFAIK
Although Noor was deeply influenced by the pacifist teachings of her father, she and her brother Vilayat decided to help defeat Nazi tyranny: "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II
http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/
Many Muslims from the Indian sub-continent, possibly at least 1 million served in WW2 in the fight against Axis powers
Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim woman who worked as an Allied SOE agent side during WW2, she was awarded the George Cross, a UK civilian honor. Which is the highest civilian honor in the UK, AFAIK
Although Noor was deeply influenced by the pacifist teachings of her father, she and her brother Vilayat decided to help defeat Nazi tyranny: "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II
http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/
Many Muslims from the Indian sub-continent, possibly at least 1 million served in WW2 in the fight against Axis powers
You realize that your attempt to paint Muslims as monolithically virtuous is just as offensive as opposing attempts to paint them as vicious Antisemities, right?
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
You realize that your attempt to paint Muslims as monolithically virtuous is just as offensive as opposing attempts to paint them as vicious Antisemities, right?
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
Also folks there is a popular movie called Free men which almost mimics my my viewpoints of how Muslims truly reacted to the persecution of Jews in not only Muslim lands, but in Paris, France as well. I was speechless when I came across the film thinking, how is it possible to find this gem when I'm on an internet forum having this exact discussion. The movies message is incredible, to say the least. Free Men is based on true stories as well, All the points that I make itt, the film hits on. The film is on netflix and its a must watch for anyone who is slightly interested in the subject of history.
This is not some B grade movie, well known actors signed on. This is a film based on true stories and is the best WW2 film I have seen since the likes of Saving Private Ryan.
Without a doubt, the SS were able to cover up documentations in both Europe and North Africa. We don't have complete evidence that 6 million Jews died in WW2, but we know this is highly possible. We don't have literally evidence that most Muslims hated Nazis, but we know this is highly possible because common sense tells us that.
No, we aren't deciders of history. All we can do is cite sources and let people draw conclusions. I cite the leading authorities, government documents and professional historians. You cite youtube and anonymous poster on another unnamed forum.
"Rose up" is not how one normally describes handing over used clothing, renting a room, or handing over a previously prepared government document with false data on it.
For instance a decree was issued in I believe Algeria, in which local Imams asked its Muslim citizens to not partake in the confiscation of Jewish land. I understand the following may be difficult to comprehend but it is said that all Muslims in Algeria accepted the edict.
I hereby enjoin all 2+2 posters not to accept any medals from the hands of Adolf Hitler. (Let's check back in a week and see what the compliance rate is.)It is interesting to note that the proclamation didn't express opposition to confiscation of property from Jews, nor demand its return (a lot more in keeping with "rise up", "stand up", "resist", and other terms you have used).
On the contrary. You have stressed it far too much. It is directly attributable to the lack of German administration in these countries, the total absence of extermination facilities in these countries, and to the lack of deportation of local Jews from these countries to countries where extermination facilities existed. Every single country which had a significantly higher rate of Jewish "disappearance" had a least one of those three factors, usually two or three.
You have no proof of what was actually going on in full in these Muslim majority countries during WW2 under occupation. The SS, again was able to destroy documentation evidence in Europe, there is no doubt in my mind that the SS was also able to destroy evidence in Muslim Majortity country.
No, it is merely the best source for documentation of non-Jews risking their life to save Jews from the Holocaust. Do you have a source which you wish to suggest is better for this purpose?
Perhaps a language issue? I meant that Rauff is known to have not gone to particular places or to other particular places at particular times. IOW, his Einsatzkommando was never in any part of Africa other than Tunisia. He personally was in Egypt for a brief visit with Rommel to discuss the potential to set up operations, but never got a chance to do so due to the Germans being thrown out of Egypt. If you don't accept the MI5 report, the CIA report and Rauff's own testimony, and the nonexistence of any contemporary publication citing a presence other than those listed, then I guess I can't prove it to you. I would suggest that most dispassionate readers of this tread would consider the balance of evidence in this thread to favour my contention, not the proposition that the SS operated extermination facilities in Tunisia while it was under Vichy control or in other parts of North Africa.
I will provide the source if you need. Rauff was one of the guys who escaped justice after WW2. [/QUTE]No need. I am familiar with the story.
Sigh. Read any of the references on 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division and you will see that it fought to the end of the war, having been moved from fighting partisans in Yugoslavia to fighting Russians in Hungary, and eventually surrendering to the British at the end of the war and going into captivity in Austria before some of its elements were turned over to Tito. I gave you a whole list of historical references you could check on this. Instead you choose to believe some anonymous apologist on the internet. That is one reason why you keep coming to so many erroneous conclusions.
The SS were lousy at covering up in which countries they operated, where their death camps were located and from whence they deported people to death camps. All those things are much harder to hide than records of particular individuals. In the absence of any direct evidence to support SS having operated in Africa outside Tunisia, and for more than a short while in Tunisia, and the presence of evidence to the contrary, the logical conclusion is that the SS never deployed to North Africa, except for Rauff's Einsatzkommando's brief stay in Tunisia.
You have presented no evidence of "heroic" actions of Muslims. I've presented evidence of 60, all in Europe. You have presented evidence of non-heroic actions in Muslim countries, but you haven't presented any evidence that those actions saved any Jew from death. To the contrary, your only evidence is that things were relatively not risky for Jews in Muslim North African countries: only 1% died, you claim. You have provided no evidence as to the manner of death of these 1%. I have: death in custody for forced labour - mostly Italian custody. The 1% clearly doesn't apply to Albania since about 600 were deported from Greater Albania, a bit more than half by the Italians in the former Kingdom of Albania, and the rest by Albanian SS from Greater Albania (and one family by Germans.) 600/24 is 2500%, not 1%. Finally, I don't know why you think that a 1% death rate is such a good thing. It is much higher than the death rate among Muslim civilians in North Africa.
22 of them risked their lives to save Jews. A similar number murdered Jewish refugees. A few government functionaries didn't hand over some requested files for which they suffered no consequences. Undoubtedly dozens more helped in non-dangerous ways. I don't see how that makes the other 1 million Albanians (most of whom probably never saw a Jew in their life) heroes, especially those who volunteered to fight for the SS.
Actually, what is documented is what I have listed above. You have chosen to blow it all out of proportion.
Aw shucks troll - ya got me!
They were probably not lying about being threatened with rape and shooting by a drunk German. The fact that his harangue lasted two hours is a pretty good indication that the documentary was wrong to conclude that they were at serious risk of rape or death. The documentary lied when it described the families as "hiding" in the stable. It is clear from their own testimony that the Jews knew the Germans knew they were there. The Jewish men were even out at the time because they were providing forced labour. Hard to see how it could be forced labour if the Germans didn't know where they were staying.
Beyond an appearance fee and travel expenses, I doubt they were paid. I have no reason to believe they were paid in order to lie. There is plenty of reason to believe their testimony is being misused by the publisher of the Youtube video.
That is irrelevant to the issue of whether a great number of Muslims took heroic action in Muslim majority countries in order to save Jews.
Sigh. Read any of the references on 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division and you will see that it fought to the end of the war, having been moved from fighting partisans in Yugoslavia to fighting Russians in Hungary, and eventually surrendering to the British at the end of the war and going into captivity in Austria before some of its elements were turned over to Tito. I gave you a whole list of historical references you could check on this. Instead you choose to believe some anonymous apologist on the internet. That is one reason why you keep coming to so many erroneous conclusions.
That is irrelevant to the issue of whether a great number of Muslims took heroic action in Muslim majority countries in order to save Jews.
Given that about 98% of the Muslims who fought for the allies came from countries that didn't have a Muslim majority, and the vast majority of those that fought didn't fight in countries that had a Muslim majority and an Axis presence, I fail to see the connection.
Ooh! Ooh! I Know! I know!
OK, so why don't you try to do that, rather than continuing to push ridiculous conclusions?
Territories in which German armed forces landed and had a majority Inuit population had 0% of their Jewish population disappear during WWII, and AFAIK, no Inuit ever served in the SS or killed any Jews. By your way of thinking, this makes the Inuit even more praiseworthy than Muslims.
- That much of the saving was kind but not particularly heroic, i.e. that contrary to the title and arguments in OP, few Muslims risked their lives, freedom or even property to save Jews.
- That some Jews were mistaken about the degree of danger they were in, or the intent of - or risks run by - their supposed Muslim benefactors, but that when their cases were investigated by trained Jewish investigators, no actual heroic aid was found to have been given.
If that were all you were saying (and implying), you wouldn't be getting these replies. But Germans and British worked together too, as did Germans and Russians.
I wanted to add one more thing,
When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.
I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.
When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.
I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.
Your misrepresentation of what was said about Jewish testimony of Muslims saving them is dealt with above.
It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend if you look at it behind the 2-dimensional view that is being presented ITT. Arab leaders tended to be pro-Nazi not out of any particular animus toward Jews, but rather as part of a comprehensive anti-British view that is understandable given British imperial policy in the region.
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Overall I find this to be a very poor thread that reduces people to mere religious affiliation without taking larger trends into consideration.
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Overall I find this to be a very poor thread that reduces people to mere religious affiliation without taking larger trends into consideration.
If you want to suggest instead that a majority of Muslim leaders in the Balkans, North Africa and other Arab-inhabited areas did not trust or support Nazism, I would agree, but that is not equivalent to what you actually claimed.
To address Do the Math
To be fair, CI, the majority of Muslims who served with the Germans during World War II, did so due to long-standing internal ethnic cleavages which existed, primarily within Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. The main focus was ongoing ethnic rivalries, especially between the Croats and Bosnians on one side and the Serbs on the other as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Religion was really a secondary element.
To be fair, CI, the majority of Muslims who served with the Germans during World War II, did so due to long-standing internal ethnic cleavages which existed, primarily within Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. The main focus was ongoing ethnic rivalries, especially between the Croats and Bosnians on one side and the Serbs on the other as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Religion was really a secondary element.
This is the first place I have seen it claimed that the Green Cadres were on the same side as the partisans. The only way in which they "joined" the partisans, is that they took part in irregular warfare. The Green Cadres and a number of similar organizations were Muslim self-defence organizations formed to defend Muslim villages against raids by the Croatians and Serbs. I.e. they fought on neither main side, but protected their own.
A better example would have been the Muslim Brigades of the Communist Partisans.
In addition to Balkan Muslims, about 300,000 Soviet Muslims served in the German forces (Very roughly 10% of the number of Muslims in the Red Army) . In contrast few North African or Middle-Eastern Muslims served Gemany, totalling just about 5,000-6,000 Arabs and Berbers. There were also about 2,500 Muslims captured from the British Army who chose to serve the Germans.
The number of Muslims who fought along side the Japanese against the British was in six figures, and nearly as many Muslims fought with the Nationalist Chinese against the Russians and Mongolians.
The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941.
"Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."
A reply from my other history thread,
--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part.
--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part.
The fact is hundreds of thousands of Muslims took part in putting an end to Hitler and the Holocaust - by serving in the Soviet army. They were Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tatars, Kirghiz, Tadjiks and others. They helped liberate the death camps. Their contribution should not be forgotten simply because they remain nameless in the Western world.
--I would be careful not to draw broad conclusions from the example of the 'Hanschar' formations in the Waffen-SS. They had their own agenda, a continuation of the internecine hillbilly warfare that has plagued the area for centuries. It goes back much further, but the modern Croat history starts with Stepan Radič and continues through Ante Pavelič.
On the human level and the cinematic scale of “Free Men,” Stora’s judgment has been wholly validated. And in the historical context, Satloff writes in “Among the Righteous” that albeit in very modest numbers, it can be demonstrated that during “Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews.”
http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all
http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all
last post, as this is #4. But this is a good one
Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim ...
... "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians
Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim ...
... "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians
You realize that your attempt to paint Muslims as monolithically virtuous is just as offensive as opposing attempts to paint them as vicious Antisemities, right?
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.
Also folks there is a popular movie called Free men which almost mimics my my viewpoints of how Muslims truly reacted to the persecution of Jews in not only Muslim lands, but in Paris, France as well. I was speechless when I came across the film thinking, how is it possible to find this gem when I'm on an internet forum having this exact discussion. The movies message is incredible, to say the least. Free Men is based on true stories as well, All the points that I make itt, the film hits on. The film is on netflix and its a must watch for anyone who is slightly interested in the subject of history.
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This is not some B grade movie, well known actors signed on. This is a film based on true stories and is the best WW2 film I have seen since the likes of Saving Private Ryan.
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This is not some B grade movie, well known actors signed on. This is a film based on true stories and is the best WW2 film I have seen since the likes of Saving Private Ryan.
I brought up the film Free Men because its based on true stories and is actually a decent tool to take a look at this subject with.
DTM, like I said I'm fine with w/e you have to say. Of course your post is so long, that is may just be the longest post you have made on this forum, itr, Well done my friend.
All I can say is did you get the chance to see my other history thread on the armchair general forum ? Its a forum dedicating to history and quite possible one of the best history forums around. Take no offense to the following but in the armchair general thread, there are differing views then what you are presenting itt. Members of the armchair forum more or less agree that millions of Muslims actually did more to assist Jews and Allies (much more) then the thousands of Muslims who fought with the Axis powers under the guise of a psychopath, this a key and IMO should not overlooked.
Prior to the creation of modern day Israel and modern day discrimination from both sides, Muslims and Jews lived liked brothers for a 1000 years in many, many more areas(Middle East, North Africa) then is the case now. At times, modern day news outlets run stories meant to marginalize either/both Islam or Judaism prior to the creation of modern day Israel. Unfortunate instances did occur between these two groups but much of the relationships between Jews and Muslims thru history were positive.
I have 26 posts or w/e the count is because I'm very much interested in this subject and gaining knowledge on the issue, that's why I posted itt. If folks want to agree or disagree with my points, or just add new information then this would be appreciated.
DTM, like I said I'm fine with w/e you have to say. Of course your post is so long, that is may just be the longest post you have made on this forum, itr, Well done my friend.
All I can say is did you get the chance to see my other history thread on the armchair general forum ? Its a forum dedicating to history and quite possible one of the best history forums around. Take no offense to the following but in the armchair general thread, there are differing views then what you are presenting itt. Members of the armchair forum more or less agree that millions of Muslims actually did more to assist Jews and Allies (much more) then the thousands of Muslims who fought with the Axis powers under the guise of a psychopath, this a key and IMO should not overlooked.
Prior to the creation of modern day Israel and modern day discrimination from both sides, Muslims and Jews lived liked brothers for a 1000 years in many, many more areas(Middle East, North Africa) then is the case now. At times, modern day news outlets run stories meant to marginalize either/both Islam or Judaism prior to the creation of modern day Israel. Unfortunate instances did occur between these two groups but much of the relationships between Jews and Muslims thru history were positive.
I have 26 posts or w/e the count is because I'm very much interested in this subject and gaining knowledge on the issue, that's why I posted itt. If folks want to agree or disagree with my points, or just add new information then this would be appreciated.
93 years young, this is very nice to hear Send your father my appreciation for his service in the army/navy. Whichever branch he may have been in.
Like I said I'm not going to get upset with you anymore, but please lay off posts like the one you make above. The movie I linked is based on true stories, you should watch it if your interested in the subject of history, its a fascinating look into Paris France during WW2.
Ben Ghabrit, although required to collaborate with the Nazi-controlled French Vichy government, was also a close friend of Mohammed V, King of Morocco. The latter monarch’s laudable efforts to protect his Jewish subjects during the Second World War have led to his name, among others, currently being bruited about to be named one of the “Righteous Among the Nations,” an initiative that Shimon Peres reportedly supports. As Eva Weisel pointed out in a December 28 Op-Ed in The New York Times, getting Yad Vashem to grant the honorific to a Muslim seems to be unusually difficult.
Ben Ghabrit did indeed save Halali by issuing him a false certificate of Muslim religion to mislead the Nazis. To back up this document, the name of Halali’s father was even inscribed on a blank headstone in the Muslim cemetery of the Parisian suburb of Bobigny.
Do the Math, did you expect these Arabs to try and kill/injure SS troops while in Paris, France? Almost certainly this would have led to more Jews dying. Some Muslims in Paris, France were able to hoodwink Nazis and in turn, save Jews. There were Arab/Muslim freedom fighters who joined the resistance during occupied France as well.
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...#ixzz2pVLMrtzE
Do the Math I'm coming from the position of bringing Jews and Muslims together thru positive stories. The heroic actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2 have been largely forgotten, I will always remember the actions of some of these Arab/Muslim heroes and I'm glad I have stumbled upon this subject. It wasnt just because of Islam, human spirit played a role in the decisions of Muslims to hide Jews, provide false documentation to Jews to disguise them as Muslims, I will never forget these heroes.
We have to balance the thousands of Muslims who fought for Axis forces compared to the Millions who fought against Hitler and the holocaust. Also in Albania, at the start of the war there were 200 Jews, and the end of the war there were 2000 Jews. I will never forget the actions of these amazing people who protected Jews at there own risk. I will trust the words of the Jews who were their at the time of Kristallnacht Albania.
Here are a few sources I have used.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml
http://www.ajr.org.uk/journal/issue.Apr10/article.5343
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp
http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...-kristallnacht
The Albanian government refused to cooperate with the Nazis, telling them there were no Jews in the country, Neumann said. So the Nazis did their own search, going house to house to house, including the one Neumann's family was staying with in 1943. The Albanian family introduced Neumann's family as relatives from Germany, staving off the Nazi forces.
At that time, Muslims faced little prejudice, Neumann said, and she's found it disheartening how people today stereotype those of Islamic faith based on the actions of extremists.
"Because someone happens to be a Muslim doesn't mean he also happens to be a terrorist," she said. "It's really deplorable. We cannot as a society distinguish between good and bad. We are so prejudiced."
Members of FAU's Jewish Culture Society felt it was important to spotlight "this important and little known chapter of history," Group President Evelyn Solomon said.
Do the Math, here is the other history forum I was talking about
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674
I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread. Believe it or not, my thread on armchair general is independent of my religious views and was created for the sole reason of gaining knowledge on the issue.
I signed up on armchair general for the specific purpose of forgetting about religion and focusing on the issue of how Arabs/Muslims reacted to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674
I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread. Believe it or not, my thread on armchair general is independent of my religious views and was created for the sole reason of gaining knowledge on the issue.
I signed up on armchair general for the specific purpose of forgetting about religion and focusing on the issue of how Arabs/Muslims reacted to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts.
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