200 Years Ago- June 24, 1812 Napoleon Invades Russia - Page 3 - History -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

smrk2 · 07-14-2012, 01:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Honey Badger

Don't be to quick......

I think Augustus's legacy was not his innovation as a military leader but his talents as a military leader of empire. The reign of Augustus initiated an era of relative peace known as the Pax Romana (The Roman Peace). Despite continuous wars or imperial expansion on the Empire's frontiers and one year-long civil war over the imperial succession, the Mediterranean world remained at peace for more than two centuries.

Augustus dramatically enlarged the Empire, annexing Egypt, Dalmatia, Pannonia, Noricum, and Raetia, expanded possessions in Africa, expanded into Germania, and completed the conquest of Hispania. Beyond the frontiers, he secured the Empire with a buffer region of client states, and made peace with the Parthian Empire through diplomacy. He reformed the Roman system of taxation, developed networks of roads with an official courier system, established a standing army, established the Praetorian Guard, created official police and fire-fighting services for Rome, and rebuild much of the City during his reign.

I don't disagree with that, and while Caesar is more famous, Augustus was in many ways more significant (had Caesar lived, that wouldn't be true because Caesar would have probably crushed the Parthians and then returned to restructure the Republic or abolish it). It may be transparent that I'm relying on HBO's Rome and Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast here, but Augustus comes off more than a little squeamish about being on the battlefield. It seems that he didn't dictate tactics like the others on your lists did. It's certainly true though that he used the military to consolidate power in a more brilliant way than anybody before him.

iloveMarina · 07-16-2012, 10:15 AM

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Originally Posted by smrk2

I don't want to argue ideology. For good or ill, it seems to me that the collapse of the USSR was very fast, which suggests that whatever was holding it together wasn't that strong.

De-facto there is no USSR any more, but de-jure, all ex-soviet countries speak russian, or having russian as one of official language, and, they are using one economical space (something like union) . So, there is still something like USSR.

And second,

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If I think of other great empires (Romans, Greeks, British), when they fell or declined a lot of their institutions endured for a long time. I don't see many Soviet institutions enduring in the same way, but maybe you have good examples that show otherwise.

About what institutions are you talking about?

Honey Badger · 07-16-2012, 08:26 PM

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Originally Posted by iloveMarina

De-facto there is no USSR any more, but de-jure, all ex-soviet countries speak russian, or having russian as one of official language, and, they are using one economical space (something like union) . So, there is still something like USSR.

The examples that you use actually make Smrk2 point.

Language has never been something that defines a great empire. Sure having it adapted and in use wide spread helps, but is not a feature to bank on. At the height of the USSR most people in Poland still spoke Polish.

Groups of people trade with on another for common good and economic gain but that still dose not mean they are pining for the glory days of the USSR or common rule.

Do you think the old East Germans are looking back to the good old days of harsh treatment of human rights, food shortages etc of the Russian occupation after WWII? I think they are very happy generally being the pillar that is supporting most of Europe not a cog in the old USSSR.

smrk2 · 07-17-2012, 12:01 AM

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Originally Posted by iloveMarina

About what institutions are you talking about?

Greeks - Math, science, and philosophy in the academy, democracy at scale, the Hellenistic era.

Romans - Defined the boundaries of Western civilization for ~600 years (almost silly to just pick one institution).

Greeks & Romans: the spread/institutionalization of Christianity, the Byzantine empire.

British - The Royal Society, the Industrial Revolution, the parliamentary system, English common law.

Honey Badger · 07-17-2012, 01:55 AM

Don't forget the one cultural institution left by the of USSR:

Spoiler:

iloveMarina · 07-17-2012, 07:03 AM

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Greeks - Math, science, and philosophy in the academy, democracy at scale, the Hellenistic era.

Romans - Defined the boundaries of Western civilization for ~600 years (almost silly to just pick one institution).

Greeks & Romans: the spread/institutionalization of Christianity, the Byzantine empire.

British - The Royal Society, the Industrial Revolution, the parliamentary system, English common law.

About which great greek empire are you talking about?

It's great empires of west. USSR was great empire of east, and partly of west.
You do understand that it's very naive to compare ancient times and modern era?

Communism, revolution in space program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program), industializing of east.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honey Badger

Language has never been something that defines a great empire. Sure having it adapted and in use wide spread helps, but is not a feature to bank on. At the height of the USSR most people in Poland still spoke Polish.

New generation - yes, old - no.

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Groups of people trade with on another for common good and economic gain but that still dose not mean they are pining for the glory days of the USSR or common rule.

Not only economical. Its like EU.
They won't re-unite officialy, but even now Moscow dictates policy of neighbourhoods.(similar with USA)

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Do you think the old East Germans are looking back to the good old days of harsh treatment of human rights, food shortages etc of the Russian occupation after WWII? I think they are very happy generally being the pillar that is supporting most of Europe not a cog in the old USSSR.

Again, you are talking about subject, which about you know little, or nothing.
Did you know that East German was one of most industrilize republic of USSR?
Food shortage? Yes, coffee and sugar was deficite 1976-1979. Something else? Proof.
Harsh treatment of human rights? Proof. Please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...ratic_Republic
I understand that for you, and a lot of americans - USSR, empire of evil, that good old Cold War days are not over.

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Don't forget the one cultural institution left by the of USSR:

You see your attitude towards USSR? Reign of Chaos, or something similar, while USA is the Stronghold of Justice and blah, blah blah.
And yes, institution left by USA.

Spoiler:

monarco · 07-17-2012, 08:34 AM

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Originally Posted by iloveMarina

Harsh treatment of human rights? Proof. Please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

iloveMarina · 07-17-2012, 08:45 AM

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Originally Posted by monarco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

It's only became 'criminal organization' because all secret documents was published.
ANY 'secret security institution' should be described as criminal.

smrk2 · 07-17-2012, 02:37 PM

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Originally Posted by iloveMarina

About which great greek empire are you talking about?

The Delian league (predominantly Athens), then the Macedonian empire.

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It's great empires of west. USSR was great empire of east, and partly of west.

Explain why that distinction is relevant. I don't hesitate to count the Mongol Empire as a great empire, or Imperial China, etc.

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You do understand that it's very naive to compare ancient times and modern era?

I don't like your tone. I gave my opinion (clearly identified as my opinion) and tried to explain why I have the opinion that I have, and indicated that I'm glad to hear why you disagree.

If you don't like comparing great empires of ancient times to great empires of modern times, then give us a list of the great modern empires you want to compare the USSR to.

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Communism, revolution in space program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program), industializing of east.

How is communism doing these days? I love space as much as the next guy, but soviet accomplishments in space are not significant at the empire scale. Industrialization is good, but the west industrialized (and pioneered industrialization) 100-150 before.

Honey Badger · 07-17-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iloveMarina

Again, you are talking about subject, which about you know little, or nothing.
Did you know that East German was one of most industrilize republic of USSR?
Food shortage? Yes, coffee and sugar was deficite 1976-1979. Something else? Proof.
Harsh treatment of human rights? Proof. Please.

Are you implying that there are a number of people in the old East Germany clamoring for the old days of Soviet occupation?

Honey Badger · 07-17-2012, 10:18 PM

I think most Germans would actually rather have Napoleon as Emperor rather than being under Soviet occupation.

smrk2 · 07-18-2012, 01:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Honey Badger

I think most Germans would actually rather have Napoleon as Emperor rather than being under Soviet occupation.

That's very probably true, but on the other hand the British would rather endure sugar shortages and play balalaikas than to have had to bend to Napoleon.

iloveMarina · 07-18-2012, 09:28 AM

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Originally Posted by smrk2

The Delian league (predominantly Athens), then the Macedonian empire.

Then, Russian empire should be counted as ''ancestor'' of USSR.

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Explain why that distinction is relevant. I don't hesitate to count the Mongol Empire as a great empire, or Imperial China, etc.

Because, in my opinion situation in the world changed drastically. We should count great empire in context of that era.

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I don't like your tone. I gave my opinion (clearly identified as my opinion) and tried to explain why I have the opinion that I have, and indicated that I'm glad to hear why you disagree.

If you don't like comparing great empires of ancient times to great empires of modern times, then give us a list of the great modern empires you want to compare the USSR to.

I didn't mean to offend you. It's just my writing style.
And I didn't say that I don't want to compare ancient empires with modern, to me, it's the same like to compare different worlds.

Well, to me modern great empires - Britain, USA, China (rising one), USSR(after collapse, rising Russia).
All of this countries above still having imperialistic ambitions, and they are dictating they rules around them.

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How is communism doing these days? I love space as much as the next guy, but soviet accomplishments in space are not significant at the empire scale. Industrialization is good, but the west industrialized (and pioneered industrialization) 100-150 before.

You can't say so quickly that ideology have been faded. When institution of democracy was 'created', it didn't spread to world so fast.

To modern era space accomplishments - new science! It's like something completely new to humanity, perhaps like physics to ancestors?
What about chemistry? Dmitrii Mendeleev, Nikolay Nikolayevich Semyonov, et.c.
There is a lot of accomplishments.

iloveMarina · 07-18-2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honey Badger

Are you implying that there are a number of people in the old East Germany clamoring for the old days of Soviet occupation?

Did I mention something about ''clamoring for the old days of Soviet occupation?'' I just replied to you, that it wasn't so bad as you described.

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I think most Germans would actually rather have Napoleon as Emperor rather than being under Soviet occupation.

Yes, you think, not you not me, we both don't now how most Germans think.
And btw, why you think that Napoleon won't be more harsh than USSR was?

monarco · 07-18-2012, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honey Badger

Are you implying that there are a number of people in the old East Germany clamoring for the old days of Soviet occupation?

That's actually true. There's even an english wikipedia entry on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie

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When the renowned West-German magazine Der Spiegel asked former GDR-inhabitants whether the GDR "was the better state" (compared to present-day Germany), 57% of them answered yes.