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Old 12-26-2007, 07:15 AM   #201
Jman28
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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If you went back 3-4 years (or whenever you first took up poker), would you still take up the game or pursue a different career path?
I definitely would still have taken up the game.

Quote:
If you still would have taken up the game, how would you have approached learning it differently?
I think I approached it pretty well. If I knew then what I know now about learning, I probably would've skipped ahead maybe 6 months. I wouldn't have spent my time learning and playing SitnGo's. I would've gone straight to cash games. I would've gotten a coach and made poker friends sooner.
Quote:
Also, of everyone that you have ever spoken to about poker, who had the greatest raw technical knowledge base (outside of yourself)?
Hmmm, raw technical knowledge base is a kind've specific way of putting it. It reminds me of SitnGos actually, where everything was about the numbers and playing a formula. Curtains always struck me as the most technically knowledgeable from the STT forums.

If I can change the question a bit, Tom (durrrr) definitely has the smartest, most creative poker mind of anyone I've talked poker with.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:20 AM   #202
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Re: The Well: Jman28

its amazing how similar you and i are (aside from you being a poker god and all that). i think a lot of us can relate to your story about being intelligent and unmotivated. i suppose thats how a lot of us found poker?

no questions or anything, just wanted to remark on that.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:25 AM   #203
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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Originally Posted by ike View Post
Hey jman, thanks for doing this, its been an exceptionally interesting read so far. You're only one of the best poker players around, but you are the best at writing about poker out of any of the top players online right now. I've got a couple questions:

I noticed you have made exactly 1 video ever (unless there are others I can't find). why did you stop? did it have anything to do with worrying about giving away information? how much do you think it costs you for your regular opponents to see that? i'm curious because i have an offer to start making videos and i'm really on the fence about doing it.

also, feel free not to answer or to answer only briefly but i'd be really curious to hear any thoughts you have about my game.
I'm not sure how much I wanna say about this.

I made one video as an audition of sorts. CR wanted to see how I would fit into their system, so I agreed to start a blog and make one video before they presented me with an offer.

Long story short, I thought the offer was -ev for me.

I was a bit worried about my opponents seeing my style of play, but that wasn't a main factor.

I g2g to bed now, dudes. I might talk more about this later, since I know it's a question a lot of people have. I need to think about it.

Also, if you could wind down the original questions, and focus more on questions/clarifications brought up by responses I've already made, that would be cool. I have to end this sometime. It's taking forever.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:26 AM   #204
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Glad you told the Wynn $1/2 NL story, also Mikey is probably the funniest guy ever. Hopefully both of you guys are going to PCA so I can stack you at drunken $1/2 NL again.

You said you were very aggro in taking shots when you started playing cash. Was that out of character for you in comparison with your non-poker life? For example have you been aggressive or conservative when deciding how to invest your money? Is poker basically an anomaly of your personality? It definitely is for me.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:28 AM   #205
Jman28
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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Originally Posted by jfish View Post
its amazing how similar you and i are (aside from you being a poker god and all that). i think a lot of us can relate to your story about being intelligent and unmotivated. i suppose thats how a lot of us found poker?

no questions or anything, just wanted to remark on that.
Yeah I'd imagine there are a lot of us.

There's no reason this thread can't become a discussion amongst people besides me. I would hope my answers might bring up some interesting thoughts. Maybe start a new thread and link it here if you think something might be cool to discuss further.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:02 AM   #206
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Re: The Well: Jman28

you say an important thing to do is eliminate going on "auto pilot". How might one do this? I find myself auto-piloting playing even 1-4 tables.
Also, how do you keep yourself focused, hand by hand?
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:46 AM   #207
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Hi Jman, can you quote this and say "Hi" back to me? Just so I can tell people I talked to Jman. =)

Serious questions:
What are key differences between live and online play? Do you think online is tougher if limits are held the same? I.E- 400NL = 10-20 live. If so, how does 3-6 or 5-10NL online compare to live play?

Thanks
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:54 AM   #208
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Re: The Well: Jman28

jman you are up there with the best writers on 2+2, just wondered if you had an 18 or 19 yr old kid that wants to become a good poker player, possibly in future play for a living what would would be your best tip for that person? Are you the type that would say "dont do it" get a normal 9-5 job or would u kinda promote poker and the sbrugby approach "go for it"?

one last question (not sure if you have answered it or not if so sorry) obv poker must be a great game when your having days when your winning thousands and thousands but how hard is it to take when your on a huge downswing and how do you deal with it? Do you ever take it out on your family or friends, or do you kinda forget about poker when your around them?

thanks again jman great thread.

ps. if you have time can you try and get tom (durrrr) to do one of these as i wanted to ask him some questions would be cool if you could, did pm him but whats the chance of getting a reply? lol
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:01 AM   #209
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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Originally Posted by Jman28 View Post
I also think that a lot of medium-good but not great players probably undervalue betsize/timing tells. Especially against weaker opposition.
Hello, thanks for this great thread!
I know this question might be highly player dependent/situational but can you elaborate further around especially betsizing and timinig tells. Do you have any labels on patterns that you use?
Do you have any suggested reading covering this?
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:17 AM   #210
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Just wanted to thank you for the thread. It was really interesting. You know have all the 2+2 community in debt with you!

Besides, this well has made me think, if I am losing my time, not having a more aggressive bankroll management ...
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:04 AM   #211
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Re: The Well: Jman28

What is needed for a solid winning 3/6 player to learn to beat the regulars in the
good 5/10 or 10/20 level?
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:42 AM   #212
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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The general public has no understanding of a lot of important concepts, mostly logic and probability related. It completely blows my mind that anyone making huge decisions doesn't understand logic and bayesian probability in and out.
This is sososososososo true, its mind-boggling. Like when "miracles" happen. C'mon... there's 6 billion+ people in the world, obviously every once in a while things are going to happen that seem "impossible" or "never happen". It bothers me when people say that "it was a miracle" they won the lottery. Someone had to win it. Just because it was you doesn't mean you're more special than anyone else..

And its especially true when you actually put some numbers on things, and it shows how clueless people REALLY are. Like for example, watching "Deal or No Deal" last night with the family (Xmas time etc..) There's 5 boxes left, $400k, $100k, $25k, and a couple small ones. The offer coming in was like $80k. "OMG TAKE IT! You're going to lose!" "No Grandma, if you add $400 and $100 and $25 and divide by.." "NO! Thats a big offer! Just the other day I saw someone get offered that much and go home with $25,000." "Yes Grandma, but you can't be results oriented because the... oh, nevermind.. " And this is someone that has spent over half a century earning money, yet not ever being educated on how it works or the choices you have with it.
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:59 AM   #213
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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Originally Posted by Lefort View Post
This is sososososososo true, its mind-boggling. Like when "miracles" happen. C'mon... there's 6 billion+ people in the world, obviously every once in a while things are going to happen that seem "impossible" or "never happen". It bothers me when people say that "it was a miracle" they won the lottery. Someone had to win it. Just because it was you doesn't mean you're more special than anyone else..

And its especially true when you actually put some numbers on things, and it shows how clueless people REALLY are. Like for example, watching "Deal or No Deal" last night with the family (Xmas time etc..) There's 5 boxes left, $400k, $100k, $25k, and a couple small ones. The offer coming in was like $80k. "OMG TAKE IT! You're going to lose!" "No Grandma, if you add $400 and $100 and $25 and divide by.." "NO! Thats a big offer! Just the other day I saw someone get offered that much and go home with $25,000." "Yes Grandma, but you can't be results oriented because the... oh, nevermind.. " And this is someone that has spent over half a century earning money, yet not ever being educated on how it works or the choices you have with it.
this is EXACTLY why I'm not allowed to watch Deal or no deal with my girlfriend anymore
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:09 AM   #214
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Jman,

How beneficial is playing HU on a regular basis to a persons 6max game?

In 08, i think i will make a decent amount of money from my 6max game (playing 5/10nl online), like enough money to keep me happy and have a good year financially, do you think that i should dive into the HU scene?

Ive always wanted to become a good HU player, all of the bigwinners play HU but my HU game truly sucks balls, just from lack of XP i think...also the variance really tilts me, like tilts me to the point where it effects me IRL, and the thought of losing to a player that i think is really really bad also annoys me to the point where it effects me IRL, the money doesnt concern me one bit as i play lower stake at HU, just the competitiveness of it. Can you relate to this? or is there anything you can say about this, like a tip?

Thanks.
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Old 12-26-2007, 12:02 PM   #215
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Re: The Well: Jman28

great thread etc, thanks jman.

questions (take or leave, i don't mind):

1. with coaching, do you feel like its important for you to have a similar personality, playing style etc to get the most from the coaching, or does it not really matter? basically if i was selecting a coach would you advise me to select one that was a good 'fit' for me (in whatever direction), or to select the best coach i could? (i realise this are not complete alternatives but you know what i mean.)


2. are you a practicing jew? to what extent do you have faith/practice?


3. i started this lame thread in NVG after doing a bit of railtarding post our work Christmas party: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ad.php?t=85983 its a hand of you vs movingsand, where you timed down before betting the turn. for some reason i thought your bluffing range was wide there because there was a lot of hands you wouldn't be bet-folding. is that the sort of thing you might be thinking about there, or am i just clinging on to a thought i had while wined up?


4. have you ever heard of this book?

Sources of Power: How People Make Decisions

The author does a load of field studies of people making complex decisions in time-pressured environments (like firefighters and blitz chess players). He comes to the conclusion that, rather than weigh up the pros and cons of each possible course of action,

"you are more likely to come up with one course of action, run through it mentally to look for flaws. If you don't find any flaws in your model, you act on it, if you do find flaws, you do come up with another possible course of action, but you never compare two options, weighing the pros and cons of each. You simply don't have the time or energy."

From this thread it seems like you try very hard to follow the 'weighing up pros and cons' model at the table. do you ever follow this other decision making model (which empasises the importance of experience)? what about other nosebleed players?
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:08 PM   #216
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefort View Post

And its especially true when you actually put some numbers on things, and it shows how clueless people REALLY are. Like for example, watching "Deal or No Deal" last night with the family (Xmas time etc..) There's 5 boxes left, $400k, $100k, $25k, and a couple small ones. The offer coming in was like $80k. "OMG TAKE IT! You're going to lose!" "No Grandma, if you add $400 and $100 and $25 and divide by.." "NO! Thats a big offer! Just the other day I saw someone get offered that much and go home with $25,000." "Yes Grandma, but you can't be results oriented because the... oh, nevermind.. " And this is someone that has spent over half a century earning money, yet not ever being educated on how it works or the choices you have with it.
are you saying that she was being dumb because of her reasons for why the person should have refused the offer, or just simply because she thought they should refuse? I'm no stats guy but I know the numbers well enough and all but I am pretty sure about 100% of people that appear on Deal or No Deal should take that offer. Some of your Grandmother's reasons for taking it were pretty decent too, besides the results oriented thing and all.
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:13 PM   #217
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Re: The Well: Jman28

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
thanks jman-

I started this year in SSNL and have moved up and been very successful at high MSNL to low HSNL (working well into 6 figures for the year).

Q
--------------
I've hit a point where I can probably make about a half mill a year easily staying at the levels I'm playing now, should I keep moving up? What criteria would you suggest for making this decision? What should I be worried about if I was to move up (Variance, win rate, etc)?
I'm not jman and I've never seen you play and the following will sound extremly nitty. Feel free to ignore it.
Given the developments in your personal life I'd chose a slower route for moving up than what you currently think sounds like a good plan. Think the old "cut half the words you don't need then cut the rest in half" for writers applied to poker.
Two reasons really. First is that you'll probably feel a little more "responsible" and therefore downswings for more money could have even more psychological impact than you'd expct.
Second is that you probably want a little less variance to plan life better.
Ldo it's impossible to answer without knowing you so take it for wat it's worth. Also note that this only takes into account the negative outcomes i.e. you could run superhot and this could allow you to take more time off and thus "plan better"
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:23 PM   #218
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Deal or No Deal is really a fantastic example of misunderstanding probability and also the decreasing marginal value of money (esp. to a low class family).

Girl has two cases left- 200,000 and 1,000. Banker offers 110,000. Easy decision?
http://www.nbc.com/Deal_or_No_Deal/video/#mea=193342
(video is pretty funny)
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:26 PM   #219
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Jman,

Quote:
I don't try to put my opponent in spots where he can't make a right decision vs. my range. I try to get him to make the wrong decision for my hand.
This is extremely profound.
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:38 PM   #220
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Re: The Well: Jman28

You think it's extremely profound, and I think it's just about the only thing I couldn't disagree with more in this entire thread which has otherwise been very, very good.

Interesting.
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:45 PM   #221
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLizzle View Post
are you saying that she was being dumb because of her reasons for why the person should have refused the offer, or just simply because she thought they should refuse? I'm no stats guy but I know the numbers well enough and all but I am pretty sure about 100% of people that appear on Deal or No Deal should take that offer. Some of your Grandmother's reasons for taking it were pretty decent too, besides the results oriented thing and all.
Well what I was saying was that she had no idea how to go about (or that their even existed a way to go about) analyzing the situation mathematically. Instead, she went with her emotions and a "hunch" that she should take the offer. I fully understand that alot of people should take the "-EV but still life-altering money because its safe" choice, but I don't understand (or rather, it bothers me) that the people WATCHING don't understand why someone would NOT take the offer, or any of the math involved in helping with the decisions.
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:57 PM   #222
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Re: The Well: Jman28

"maybe a tiny bit less happy on average"

why do it thn? the money will make u happier when u quit poker to compensate for the loss of happiness now?


i mean u are pretty much as successful as it gets in poker and if poker didnt make u happier then what about the rest...
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Old 12-26-2007, 02:43 PM   #223
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Great work, ofc. TY

Phil is definately one of the most intelligent, humble, honest, and hilarious people Ive ever met. Living with him this summer was really one of the highlights of the wsop for me. (except for the banana thiefing incident that one night)



Oh, and Phil is VERY SIHB in his own unique way
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Old 12-26-2007, 02:43 PM   #224
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Re: The Well: Jman28

MDMA,

I believe in the context of him writing it, he was trying to convey that not only is your range different then your perceived range all too often but also the fact that many embellish this fact to justify their own play.

The statement wasn't directed at a results oriented way of thought but rather a marker to show how he has manipulated his range to coexist with his perceived range.

Jman, please fill me in if I am way off base here as I prefer not to put words in your mouth....
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Old 12-26-2007, 02:59 PM   #225
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Re: The Well: Jman28

Most optimal way to learn and master hand reading? With that how to learn equity vs range?
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