The Voting Thread: Changes at Pokerstars

[sauce123]

The various discussion threads seem to have ended around 2p2 without anyone reaching consensus. I think this is mostly a misunderstanding combined with the thread being trolled incessantly- which has drowned out reasonable suggestions. So instead I propose a vote, so that if there is a consensus it can be counted. If you want to retain the status quo then don't hesitate to vote either as this may very well be the most popular view.

I'll try to set up the poll in the best way I can, but being human I'll probably make a mistake and definitely will not satisfy everyone or even most people. If my mistake is particularly bad please send me a pm or post ITT and I'll try to amend it. Thanks for voting all.

This thread will be for discussion due to the lack of polling options available in the forum software. The following is my best list of problems:

Problem #1: Table blocking in 6max.

Table blocking is the practice of sitting into 6max or fullring tables (primarily at high stakes) with no intention of playing until a perceived fish sits in. This insures the bumhunter gets a seat at any table in the lobby a fish sits at without having to play any hands versus another regular or work to start a table. A further part of this practice is filling a table up completely with all or all but one player sitting out in order to deny other bumhunters the opportunity to secure a seat at a table a fish might sit at. This practice also makes it difficult to start games as there may be no open seats on the table.

Problem #2: Clogged waitlists

Clogged waitlists occur in two ways. The first is when waitlists go as high as 20-30 players in games where there is a large, well known, fish playing. The second is when waitlists get clogged as players run automated software to automatically waitlist them at every or most tables at the limit whether or not they are even at their computer so that they can sit in at any time. The first form of clogging is a large problem at high stakes, the second at midstakes.

Problem #3: Buttoning

There are two types of buttoning. The first is when a player sits hu with another planning only on stealing his blind and then leaving. The second is at a 6max table when the weakest player leaves and all players hit their 'sit out next bb' button. The player who wants to continue playing will always have to post the last bb, incentivizing him not to start tables.

Problem #4: Sitting out when fish sits out

In a 6max game, when all players instantly sit out when the fish either sits out or leaves the table (especially egregious when he just sits out for a second).

Problem #5: Clogged 6max and HU lobbies

Having huge multiples of empty tables for every table that is running. This is a particular problem in the hu lobby where 30 times as many empty tables may be running as full tables.

Problem #6: PTR

PTR allows precise information about players' statistics to be available for free for the whole internet. Many people think that this hurts action.

Each of these six problems will receive its own thread with a short list of possible solutions and a polling option, this thread is for discussion only

[Scansion]

Originally Posted by sauce123

The various discussion threads seem to have ended around 2p2 without anyone reaching consensus. I think this is mostly a misunderstanding combined with the thread being trolled incessantly- which has drowned out reasonable suggestions. So instead I propose a vote, so that if there is a consensus it can be counted. If you want to retain the status quo then don't hesitate to vote either as this may very well be the most popular view.

I'll try to set up the poll in the best way I can, but being human I'll probably make a mistake and definitely will not satisfy everyone or even most people. If my mistake is particularly bad please send me a pm or post ITT and I'll try to amend it. Thanks for voting all.

This thread will be for discussion due to the lack of polling options available in the forum software. The following is my best list of problems:

Problem #1: Table blocking in 6max.

Table blocking is the practice of sitting into 6max or fullring tables (primarily at high stakes) with no intention of playing until a perceived fish sits in. This insures the bumhunter gets a seat at any table in the lobby a fish sits at without having to play any hands versus another regular or work to start a table. A further part of this practice is filling a table up completely with all or all but one player sitting out in order to deny other bumhunters the opportunity to secure a seat at a table a fish might sit at. This practice also makes it difficult to start games as there may be no open seats on the table.

You shouldn't be allowed to go to a table and not play. I vote auto-post is default, and if you leave before X hands you pay 2bb to your opponent. If not this, you're booted from the table after a minutes of sitting out and can't go back for a while.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Problem #2: Clogged waitlists

Clogged waitlists occur in two ways. The first is when waitlists go as high as 20-30 players in games where there is a large, well known, fish playing. The second is when waitlists get clogged as players run automated software to automatically waitlist them at every or most tables at the limit whether or not they are even at their computer so that they can sit in at any time. The first form of clogging is a large problem at high stakes, the second at midstakes.

I'd be interested in hearing exactly why this is bad. It's clearly not a good thing, but does the amount of action that happens change because of this waitlist issue? If there's a waitlist cap, or a restriction for who can get on the waitlist, will the number of hands played at that table on average change?

Originally Posted by sauce123

Problem #3: Buttoning

There are two types of buttoning. The first is when a player sits hu with another planning only on stealing his blind and then leaving. The second is at a 6max table when the weakest player leaves and all players hit their 'sit out next bb' button. The player who wants to continue playing will always have to post the last bb, incentivizing him not to start tables.

Hmm, now that I think of it, you could allow players who have paid more blinds on average to get a break coming into games later on. Say you've paid a few more BB's than others from getting buttoned: you are allowed to jump into a 6max game later on the button without posting? Not sure exactly how this would work but something that remembers how many blinds you've paid in 4/5/6 handed games and evens it out accordingly would be ideal. Might be too complicated to pull off successfully though.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Problem #4: Sitting out when fish sits out

In a 6max game, when all players instantly sit out when the fish either sits out or leaves the table (especially egregious when he just sits out for a second).

"Sit out" should mean "sit out at all games".

Originally Posted by sauce123

Problem #5: Clogged 6max and HU lobbies

Having huge multiples of empty tables for every table that is running. This is a particular problem in the hu lobby where 30 times as many empty tables may be running as full tables.

KOTH format: X non-full games per limit. Or even pure KOTH: one non-full per limit; you don't see who it is that's waiting, and whoever leaves first pays 2bb to his opponent.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Problem #6: PTR

PTR allows precise information about players' statistics to be available for free for the whole internet. Many people think that this hurts action.

Don't allow players to watch all games. "Featured games" at each limit are viewable. Each table has a "code" so if you want your friend to rail you he can type in the code that every player at the table (but only players at the table) can see.

[EsandWhizz]

Good ideas Scansion especially the "Sit out" should mean "sit out at all games". Even at small stakes you see these pathetic guys sit in and out with the fish whilst continuing to play other tables, the sit out all games would solve this. The huge waitlist problem could be solved by capping waitlists at 5 and only allowing someone else to join when it hits 4. The HU buttoning issue should be dealt with punishments of X amount hour bans from playing, increasing in length for repeat offenders. If you get grimmed you simply email Stars the HH and they will deal with the offender by issuing a temporary ban.

[Bruut99]

Concerning #2, why not have anonymous waitlists. Lots of the time snout is in the waitlist and people bumhunt the waitlist, same as being aware a big recreational player is nr 2 on the waitlist and nobody will ever leave the table being aware of that. Must be frustrating for the recreational player.

[Bruut99]

Originally Posted by EsandWhizz

Good ideas Scansion especially the "Sit out" should mean "sit out at all games". Even at small stakes you see these pathetic guys sit in and out with the fish whilst continuing to play other tables, the sit out all games would solve this. The huge waitlist problem could be solved by capping waitlists at 5 and only allowing someone else to join when it hits 4. The HU buttoning issue should be dealt with punishments of X amount hour bans from playing, increasing in length for repeat offenders. If you get grimmed you simply email Stars the HH and they will deal with the offender by issuing a temporary ban.

I once thought capping waitlist is a good idea, but unfortunately it will only favor bumhunters supported by snapjoining software.

[sauce123]

Wow, I never thought I'd say this. Mods, move this thread to NVG if you think it appropriate, as I guess this is a view.

[Fifty1Fifty]

If there are changes, I think Regs and Recs should be treated differently and have different 'rules' governing what they are allowed to do. I believe its very important that we respect who the games are built around, and what makes poker exciting and worthwhile for them. Any of the following can be easily tweaked under whatever circumstance.

Establishing Regs or Rec status would be based on X amount of hands played at that limit. E.G. once Player A plays 10k hands at 100nl, he will become a Reg at that limit. When Player A wants to move up to 200nl, he is still considered a Rec player at the 200nl limit until he play X amount of hands and reaches Reg status.

I think anything that promotes Reg on Reg action should be designed to cater around the recreational player. The rec player should be allowed to hit n run, play for whatever time limit he wants to, swear in the chat; basically anything that a regular should have the courtesy not to do. Recs would have more privileges like table starting, seat selection, etc.

[ECart]

You missed Global Waitlists as a fix to #2 and #3 and if done right to PTR.

[kutty]

just my humble opinion here, but:

1) Would it really be so hard for stars to set a basic set of rules (can't sit out for more than 5 min waiting for a table to fill, or just can't "table block") and administer a set and escalating level of punishments based on # of offences? I feel like they only have 10 tables to monitor max, and this would solve the problem pretty quickly. If people are partaking in "table blocking" then the first punishment could be something like, 1hr ban from those games those stakes or something.

2) Is it possible to disable this table-joining software? If not, ech I dono. I think capping waitlists or no waitlists would help, but if people have software it won't really change the advantage. I've also heard the idea of must-move tables, which seems pretty good but I feel like my analysis of it would not be very in-depth.

3) and 4) I feel this just comes down to how stars wants to police this situation. If they make it known that they will look into cases and punish offenders (at say.. 50c-1d and up) then people can get reported and stars can take an objective look at each case and make their decision. The first punishment should always be a warning, so people know what they are doing is no longer acceptable, and then increasing punishment in terms of severity. (like chat-bans are.. 1day, 1 week etc)

5) Cap the # of open HU and 6m tables. KOTH style but only 1 table per person. I could also see issues with this, but again, what is wrong with a trial period and then make changes as we go along?

6) PTR- def get rid of PTR. Everyone else has done it I'm sure stars has the ability somehow.

I guess my main thing is this is pokerstar's show. They should have the ability to make personal player decisions based on their own judgement of the situation, while giving enough "slack" that no-one will be able to blatantly say they were mis-treated. With a personnel dept. dedicated to these changes and a warning/escalating punishment system, I think this would be very possible and effective.

[terp]

Originally Posted by Bruut99

Concerning #2, why not have anonymous waitlists. Lots of the time snout is in the waitlist and people bumhunt the waitlist, same as being aware a big recreational player is nr 2 on the waitlist and nobody will ever leave the table being aware of that. Must be frustrating for the recreational player.

this is what bodog did and it always seemed like a great idea - i believe party does the same now?

i also like the idea of "sit out and leave" or "sit out all"

[HERE_2_gamble_]

Originally Posted by Scansion

You shouldn't be allowed to go to a table and not play. I vote auto-post is default, and if you leave before X hands you pay 2bb to your opponent. If not this, you're booted from the table after a minutes of sitting out and can't go back for a while.

auto post blinds!!! its gotta be so simple to implement, if your not prepared to play then you wont sit at a table, creates more action for stars and only effects people who dont wanna play.

i think if they added somethig like every hand you play you can sit out for 10seconds or w/e then you get booted would be good, its sucks when you play a long session and go toilet or w/e and you get booted for missing 3 rounds. they gotta start booting people even if the tables not full, no one wants to see people all sat out waiting for a fish to join, they could do something like if there hasnt been a hand for 2 mins or w/e last person to sit out gets booted, then if auto post blinds implemented, to come back hed have to play a hand and would keep getting booted if he sat out so would solve the sit out prob.

also gotta cap the number of empty tables your allowed to sit at. everyone sits at 12+ tables playing noone, cap the empty tables, not just per limit.

+1 for sit out on 1= all.

[hurt]

has stars been alerted about the existence of these threads?

[Birdseye]

Why doesn't Sit out = Sit out at all games stop the bumhunting at 6 & 9max? Are they satisfied to just play one tables at a time if a fish does show up? For non-HU issues this seems like the easiest thing to do while changing things the least.

[tracyer]

please also mention:if somebody wants to play deep HU has to ask every single reg-HU PLZ, but they usually dont care. (i hope nobody wrote this above, honestl i did not read everything.) So stars should really consider to open deep hu tables.

[PaperEmpire]

PTR needs to go. FTP managed to stop them from data mining and so should stars.
Too bad the damage is done.