+1

I am too lazy to explain it myself, plus other who can write much better than I can have done a pretty good job explaining this ownership. Much of the information comes from a liquidator working with Excapsa and Blast Off. Todd Terry has made two good posts regarding ownership. Haley Hintze has blogged about the UB scandal for some time.
Try these 2 posts from Todd, then if you are not convinced this topic is up for debate, read Haley's Blog Series. After that, go to the court documents yourself, then finally wade through my threads and posts.

Todd Terry Follow Up Question for UltimateBet part 1
Todd Terry Follow Up Question for UltimateBet part 2

LOL. I cannot begin to think how many "companies" were involved with UB, but really, it is all going to the same place. For example: IeLogic, e-world holdings, game theory ltd, blast-off, excapsa, etc.

This company was setup in such a way that the ownership structure was hard to understand. But a leaked court document with shareholders names, and some 2+2 detective work pretty much figured it out.

************************************************** ********
""As for Annie, let's compare the signature on the "Fluffhead" proxy to that appearing on a signed Annie Duke corrugated-aluminum poker chip case which appeared on eBay a few weeks back. Most public figures have two forms of their signature, a fancier "presentation" sig for special uses, and an "everyday" sig fo stuff like this. While one can find fancier Annie sigs, these two examples are of the "everyday" variety:

...shows pics of Fluffhead LLC sig and a poker case signed by AD


That seems to be a match, and verifies Duke's UB ownership in the absence of any contradicting evidence.""

************************************************** ********

There's just WAY too much of this kinda stuff. A while back, I started watching vids and reading websites by 9-11 "truthers". The guys who believe different things about Sept11, 2001...stuff like the US Government did it, it wasn't really a B757 or whatever but in fact a military jet, the buildings were exploded and not planed down etc etc.

Some of them make some very good, valid, question-raising points. But for every good point, there are 10 statements like the one above. The guy above thinks the 2 signatures look alike and that "verifies Duke's UB ownership in the absence of any contradicting evidence."


I retract my statement that there isn't debate about UB's ownership. I didn't know some of the stuff you told me to read and I genuinely appreciate the links/where to find the info. But wow man...some of it is really hard to read. Yes, the owners MAY be the same...or they just may not want to be identified with a company that has a bad reputation...or they may all be Russ Hamilton. Who knows? NOBODY. That's the problem. There's some great conjecture and circumstance-based stuff, but not too much of substance.

It's just hard to take some of it seriously and, if anything, it weakens the case imo. Like, I've been a George Bush hater for years. Then I saw Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" and it did NOT make me feel good about myself. Even if you're right or think you're right, muddling with half-truths, heresay, determining that sigs look similar proving ownership of companies...it's just too much. It makes you look like a 9-11 truther. Not You specifically of course, but I'm sure you get my point.


All that said, there WERE some good pieces of info that have given me cause for pause. I just wish there were more good ones and fewer circumstantial ones.

Ok, maybe the signature thing is a stretch. I would have went with this to tie Annie to Fluffhead. The found a more reliable link, but yes, she is behind Fluffhead. Other posters remember an email she gave out with fluffhead address.

http://www.bergproperties.com/blog/p...ills-for-284m/

I don't have a problem with Annie Duke being in charge of Fluffhead LLC, nor was I questioning that Specifically. I do have a problem with the lack of actual substance...and the very "truther" tone of most of what I read. I'm not saying it's accurate or inaccurate...and neither can anybody. That's the problem. It's like trying to prove God exists or doesn't. Til we get some more evidence, we're all just kinda guessing. And debating, which is what I was wondering about in the first place. It is debatable, I just see a lot of bad debate.

The fact of if they have new employees, new network and new card ramdomizers is not the most important point here. If they do, which i dont think we can be sure of, UB and AP still stole millions of dollars from the poker community and have returned non. It has been proven that the owners were involved and it is just not right.

We 2+2 are the voice of the poker community. It was 2+2 that made the cheating known to all. We may have stopped the cheating for now, however as many have said, it will return, unless we send a message. UB and AP MUST SUFFER the MAXIMUM consequences for what they have done to the poker community. Not only took millions from honest players but also damaged the reputation of the overall game and mainly of online poker.

The very minimum we should do is:
1. Swear never to play on UB or AP again, no matter how good the games are, how big the site gets ect.
2. Try our best to make this known to everyone, keep applying pressure to UB andAP until they refund the funds to the people who were robbed.
3. Do our best to make sure people do not play on UB or AP. This is even finding people who do play on there and explianing about the cheating scandle. Introducing them to lagit sites such as fulltilt or pokerstars. Give them all the information and let them decide if they want to still play on UB or AP.

Remeber we being 2+2 have a great power [to speak for the online poker community] and with great power comes great responsibility. Unless we act now and make sure we send a message buy taking away business from UB and AP i am sure we will be attacked by this type of cheating again. If we take away nearly all business from UB and AP we show any other sites thinking or attemting to cheap players out of money, that the poker community takes action against it.

For many of us poker is our way of life, the way we live. Or for many of us it is simply a game we like to enjoy after a hard ways work. But unless we make a statement and make UB and AP pay for what they did, the game may lose its credibility and attraction for many people. The game as we know it may change for ever.

Thanks for your time, any thoughts or more ideas of what we can do would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah, you're right. The AP and UB situation proved that it would never happen twice to the same business.

Oh, wait....

orly?

I didn't get into online poker until 2008, and didn't know about the UB scandal until probably half way through last year. so i have now read most of this thread, read about potripper, russ hamilton, the fact that this dodgy gaming commission has no real power to prosecute. more importantly read about the way that it became very public but the company never really did much about it at all.

I am sure that stars and full tilt have had there own internal issues, but the UB one was obviously very high profile and made a lot of people lose a lot of money and have far less trust in general for playing poker online.

so for my part I am just not sign up for a UB account. I have played on quite a few of the sites, sampling to see what each has to offer, but I just can't see myself despotting. i know i downloaded the client a few years back though (long since formatted)

if/when UB actually put this thing to rest by paying lawyers a lot of money to work out how to prosecute russ hamilton and whoever else was involved in some court somehwhere then I would consider. its a trust thing for me. I can't trust UB with my money. i just don't feel comfortable.

I genuinely wish seebok the best to try and sort things out. That said, I can't see him making any progress until he actually free up time to work on it. Even the public schedule we know about (running pokerroad, UB promo work, poker2nite tv show, podcasts, listening to so-hip-it-hurts music etc) is pretty intense.

on a sidenote, as much of a scumbag as russ hamilton almost definitely is, the guys who got away with it and have yet to be named and shamed... they are even worse. i wish russ had the balls to step up and go on some tv show (poker2nite! lol) and just do a tell all. just come out and say: "this is how we stole a lot of money". just come out and say it, knowing that the public admission is sure to have a fairly negative impact on his life. its about the only redeeming thing he can do at this point.

Yeah doffo, Russ Hamilton needs a good slap around the face to wake him up, then once hes awake needs the **** beating out of him. He should go for a long run and think about what he has done, not only robbed good people, but damaged the reputation of online poker. The only way he can make this even close to right is if he comes clean about everything and names and shames.

I'd like to defend potripper. Who hasn't called down on the turn with 9 high??

made for a good read ...

http://wickedchopspoker.com/the-ulti...andal-part-ii/

the conclusion to finish the tread off