Just browsing around and noticed Viffer will be on DonkDown radio on the 17th talking about this.

can someone please post cliff notes of the link to the original 40putts collusion accusations, if i remember right someone in their database had pots over 20 BB exchanging hands between kinetica and 40 puts at something like 0.02% and between 40putts and everyone else at the table at 2.5%. correct me if i messed up the numbers

and stox is clearly 40putts, he wouldn't comment on whether he was or not which means he is. lets not leave that question with any doubt

and bryce, i'm disappointed. what price would you will be willing to lay that your friend nick did not collude?

Bryce, I took another look at the e-mail. It is pretty clear that whoever wrote it has a serious beef with these companies, and it's probably not because of the things posted in it. It seems like as soon as the relationship ended, that person took offense to it and then decided to get on the moral high ground about it. (Or he would have be bring this to people's attention when it was actually happening and not recently)

There are clearly some things in that e-mail that should not be taken at face value. I am trying to reach conclusions prematurely, but here are some thoughts

1.) We all know it used to be common for people to play under different aliases. There has been a clear shift in how people have viewed this practice over the past couple of years. The main issue here is that Stox & Cardrunners are partners, and their was a high profile scandal regarding on of their pro's about multi-accounting. Given that actions were taken against BT by Full Tilt and the public reaction to this, it seems clear that Stox should have known this was not acceptable for anyone, especially someone in his position.

2.) Both stox and now you have suggested there is a "good personal reason" which prompted him to make another account recentley, but have elected not elaborate on this. As you know, it sounds pretty ridiculous and many people will feel that it is 100% BS. Personally it wouldn't shock me if there was more to it than him simply wanting to gain and edge on people, it's hard to know if it's as cut and dry and some people are already convinced it is. With that said, he is still in the wrong even if there is a "****ed up situation" that contributed significantly to his decision to create a new account.

The problem is that he is still cheating people out of money unfairly by doing this. If there is a legit reason that he needed to do this, he owed to the people he was playing against to make a significant effort to inform them of this. Even if there were extenuating ****ed up cirumstances (I am having a hard time thinking what they could be, but it's just so bizarre that you vouched for them so it seems like something else is going on) it's not ok to screw over the rest of the poker community as part of the solution to this. More thought should have been put into how to solve whatever issues Nick was facing while not compromising the intergrity of the game. That should have been obvious from square one, and even more so when this was beggining to blow up. The end result of his decision resulted directly in him having an unfair advantage worth tons of money. Again even if there is more than we know to it, it should be obvious that this is not acceptable.

3.) The whole situation with Kinnetica or whatever to name was that was only playing when 40 putts was playing needs to be explained in detail. I am not going to jump the gun with collusion accusations, as collusion is far more serious than the other accusations and of course there wouldn't be any extenuating circumstances to explain that. It would be weird for someone in his position to take part in this, so I can't imagine this would hard to address on his end if nothing was going on. I'm sure smart guys like you and him understand why this raises tons of eyebrows. This in conjuction with Nick not being forthcoming about the reason for making a new account is just bound to make people skeptical of everything that is said. I hope the reasoning behind this stuff is good. It wouldn't change the fact the it was handled terribly and people cheated out of money, and I don't know how that gets fixed. But at this point, when people have been screwed by what he did it's going to be impossible for them to accept explanations which do not involve full disclosure of all informations relevant to the allegations that have been made in this thread.

Just curious why the gentleman being accused isnt comin out here and talking and answering any and all questions?
If you have nothing to worry about than make yourself available. Seems to be the most rational thing to do IMO.
These types of things need to be handled, it gives poker and all of its players a bad rap.
There is no excuse for cheating no matter how small or miniscule you or anyone else believes it to be. Cheating is Cheating is Cheating. If youre not good enough to beat the game str8t up, then get a real job..... Its what I did!

I actaully remember that; that coach is into snowboarding iirc.

Except this isn't a public forum it is owned by 2p2.

+1

first part, can somebody with a datamine verify this number so we can present it as a fact. seems absurd.

obv. demod stox asap too

Interesting discussion going on on twitter about this as well. Check out the hashtag #viffer for what can't be said here. Interesting stuff.

you lost all credibility there. BT admitted multi accounting...

link pls

lets gooooooooooooooooo


(not my photoshop. admo did it/came from his site it looks like. just found it under google search)

there is at least 1 2p2 mod that has the info afaik tho i havent actually been in direct contact w/ him or anything. if he feels there is enough there to post it that is up to him.

This would be tragic...how else is he going to give us the story of investing the money he stole? A man bold enough to show the exact amount that he stole will surely be bold enough to make a "this is how I invested your mobey" thread sooner or later.

ok my #ers were off, here's a copy and paste from the link:

"On the mythbusters scale, the kinetica/40putts thing looks plausible to me. Look at their results vs one another if you've got a decent sample of hands.

For me, looking at holdem manager, I see that I've got 865 hands that they've played lifetime against one another at FTP which involved one of them winning money from the other guy. However, only 6 of those hands involved more than 20 BBs changing hands, and those were all from last november (before they'd reached an entente?) So .6% of all hands. Looking at Kinetica vs the other top 10 guys he's played against in my db, he wins or loses 20BBs 2.5% of the time. So he's getting involved vs 40putts a lot less often than vs everyone else.

I'm still digging."

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...t=#post9527474

there's other stuff in there but its scattered if anyone wants to put it to together and make a cliffs

Wow interesting thread, I really appreciate all the detective work people are doing. I don't have much to add but I thought I would contribute this screenshot from the HSNL lobby as an example of the awesomeness of targeted advertising: