+1 Can someone do explain this for HEM as well?

NoahSD, I can send some hands over. Do you want only the hands filtered for both Kinetica and 40putts present at table?

Poorskillz, that chat is just so brutal............

Stars reply:

Thank you for your email. Your email has been escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Security team.

I can confirm that we are aware of the allegations and the associated thread on TwoPlusTwo. We will be reviewing both the issues of multiple account abuse and collusion, and will come to a conclusion in the fullness of time.

As you would appreciate, we have a large volume of data and hands to review, so I do not expect that this will be resolved in a matter of hours: it is likely to take many days to do so. If you have any particular evidence beyond what is already available on the public thread on TwoPlusTwo, you or anyone else can email it to us at gamesecurity@pokerstars.com.

Thanks for your patience during this time."

I predict that the sites will likely find out that those guys were at least soft playing, but really cant admit that collusion happened over such a long period of time.
However, what they can do is ban these guys over multi accounting, which seems likely to me, because at this point they cant really let this go under without reputational damage.

Lol are you serious? Do you know how many massive affiliate businesses Nick owns or owns a piece of? Stox is just a tiny piece of his pie. Also lol @ him severing ties with the company. Wonder how big that golden handshake was.

Also I wonder if he's no longer involved with Stox, does that mean he's no longer invovled with This Is The Nuts and all the other companies who have very close relationships with Stox?

Here's what I see from David B's 44k hand database:



Now even though Kinetica has the most hits (wins+losses) there, that database has far more hands vs Kinetica (5.7k) than the next three names on that list (1.3k - 1.7k), so in that sample 40putts is actually cold-calling significantly less vs Kinetica compared to those other players. Filtering 3bets instead of cold calls shows a pretty normal amount of 3bets against Kinetica compared to the same three players.

Now, that filter is far from perfect and I'm not attempting to prove anything regarding softplay/collusion accusations as it would be ridiculous to try that from these numbers. However, I'm interested in how you got such very different results. Try running these filters in the "vs Players" tab and seeing if you still get a 30:1 ratio.

If you do, let us know what time period your hands are from, since that's clearly when 40putts and Kinetica were doing crazy cold call collusion.
If you don't, let us know that you made that 30:1 number up so people can stop quoting it.

As an owner of Protos Marketing, the company that owns ThisIsTheNuts, I can tell you that StoxTrader is in no way involved with TITN. The original founders of TITN (including Stox) sold all of their interests in the website and player base to our company in early 2007. Stox does not participate in or own any part of Protos Marketing, and as far as I know he's never even seen our office.

If Stars are looking at this, then I guess we can leave it to rest for a while. Stars would have all hands with hole cards exposed - which noone beside Stoxtrader has anyway.

If something makes sense, it is to apply some pressure to FTP to do the same.

Having said that it looks to me that the pressure to Stoxtrader is a bit too much. He already made steps beyond the "punishments" one normally gets in such situations.

This case now from time to time turns to a mob lynch for a guy (and a site) that a lot of people enjoyed and learned a lot from.

Like people have brought up before, you are involved in a community that makes real money poker bots. That should definitely preclude you from discussing online poker ethics.

Some hundreds years ago black people and womens were also precluded from discussing a lot of topics from people with similar mindset like yours. The fact that you are most probably playing poker from US where your government sees that unethical and possibly illegal, should preclude you to discuss on ethics as well, or?

Anyway, I don't plan to enter debates. I don't see a reason to not stand behind the opinion I posted above.

It's chat from a saved handhistory from March 9th.

I was just posting it to show that stoxtrader was not just forgetful or unaware or ignorant in his failure to tell other players he played against regularly that he was also 40putts, but was flat-out denying it to us as recently as March 9th (and I have no doubt he would've continued this deceitfulness for a long time if he wasn't caught.)

He can claim it wasn't his ultimate goal, but stoxtrader can't deny that he gained an unfair edge over us through his cheating, deceiving, and lying.

Also, I'm just curious on how/why stoxtrader stopped playing on bulltf0rdtuff and started playing again on stoxtrader in March. Does someone care to explain why that happened?

Has leatherass weighed in on this yet? Does everyone figure this is why he left Stox (along w/Jared?) Did he sign something that guarantees his silence? Did they just wave his 'no compete' and let him go to his new instructional site in exchange for this? This would all be conjecture so I guess none of these questions should be even answered. I would just love to know what Dusty thinks, if/how long he knew and how much money he lost to these guys. As someone who plays way, way lower I find this thread fascinating.

Hey Gondolin, I have no answer for you on why our stats differ. My DB is almost entirely CAP NL, 07-09. Looks like yours is from 6max standard NL. Perhaps they played differently when they were both <20 stacks, or perhaps my dataset is indeed to small to draw conclusions.

I found the ratio by manually going through all hands where the two of them were in a pot together and one won money from the other looking for coldcalls when (a) there were other guys left to act and (b) no one else had called already.

I went ahead and looked a second time. The ratio turns out to be 14:1. 14 coldcalls, 1 reraise. (My earlier 30:1 counted spots where kinetica was in the blinds when 40putts coldcalled.) I also confirmed that only once did he rr kinetica in this spot. Overall I have his coldcall rate at 5.5% and reraise rate at 5% facing one raiser, no callers, outside BB.

So it's a small sample, but if he really plays about 50/50 then the odds of getting 14 coldcalls and 1 reraise in 15 samples strictly by chance is about one in a thousand.

Why would they have tighter ranges against one another?

1 in a thousand is not enough. look at antonius vs good2cu hand. ridic stuff happens in poker. we need a study done on a big enough sample to leave no doubt.