fyi 55+ dominate 75s. Contrary to popular belief, it's not just a kicker concept.

Hey Panzer I didn't want to come off rude, but the stakes we're talking about might just be over your head... I totally agree with you if we talk about a good solid nit, but nobody in the higher games that is declared as a good solid, agressive opponent will be such a nit... If you will only call my reraise with strong hands (4bet AA, KK, QQ, maybe AK; but only call with 88-JJ, AJs+, AQo+) then I will know what you have and I'll crush you easily.
Let's say the board comes down K73, you will rarely have AK or KQ, so by betting I will make you fold out 88-JJ and AJ/AQ.. If you check-raise me and are so nitty then I know for sure that I am beat and can fold my hand every time. Unfortunately poker isn't that easy and good players won't play in such a exploitable manner. Having a wide range and keep your opponents guessing while you can put them on exact ranges will give you a tremendous edge over your competition... Unfortunately this is very old news and all good players implemented this or even if they play a reasonable hand range and we can narrow hands down preflop, they will occasionally mix it up or make plays postflop, therefore it's still not ABC poker.

Case closed.

poor panzer is gonna take the knowledge he has acquired here now and go dump 9 buyins at .5/1

Yes, but 88 has a very hard time getting to showdown also. like 75% of flops have an over.


Personally, I say 57s, A2s, 88, KJo.

57s- Because if I flop big, he'll never see it coming, and I can stack him from far ahead, and I can also get away easily if I cbet/miss.
A2s- Ace of course has it's own value, but if you get action to it, it's usually toast, but if you happen to flop a few wheel cards or FD, you can still bet hard and probably not be too far behind if you get shoved on and decide to call, ( depends on when, of course)
88- Fairly straight forward, although getting shoved on on a undercard flop sucks unless you have a straight draw. Otherwise, you can cbet flop and reassess from there, and if I get action, I'm usually folding. Obv, you can set up and valuetown, but I am far more partial to 88's value calling PF than RR'ing, and will call only far more, ( but that;s really not the point).

KJ sucks- Unless you flop 2 pair, trips, or a straight/draw, if you get action, you are very likely behind, and WAY behind. I just don't like it, ESPECIALLY out of the SB. If in position, it's better, ( isn't it always?), but even still, I hate it. If flop is KT4 rainbow and you cbet standard, folding to a raise can be very hard, ( although it often shouldn't be)



FWIW, I'm nitting along at 21/16 in 6max now, and 25-50 has always given me fits, although I'm a slight winner at it.



EDIT: Oops, for some reason I read this as being in the SB. I don't care to think about if it changes my opinion, but I;d guess it would.

I need to go to bed.

Some very bad answers .

Pocket 8's is close in value with k-jo but I believe 8's are better . For the same reason pocket j's are better than A-K and pocket tens are better than A-Q . Using deductive reasoning , it isn't a far fetch to believe that pocket 8's should have more value than K-jo .

Similarly , 7-5s is closer in value with A-2s although neither of them should be preferred over k-j or 8's . I probably chose 7-5 suited as your additional outs(straight draws) should compensate for all the times you lose to a better flush with it .

8's > k-j > 7-5s > A-2s

I can't believe the hate for 88 and A2s. Those are very playable to have IP imo. Its not like we have to bet/call with 88 on QJx flops or A2 on A84r flops. I think the KJo vs 75s is interesting, and I'd take KJo IP and 75s OOP since oop you can put in the last bet on the flop with marginal equity hands (gutters etc). So I'd say 88 > A2s > KJo > 75s

1.5 years later bump, still waiting on Jman's response plz.

KJ off has mad blockers

Can't believe all the love for KJo
But Im not sleeping on a bed of gold so meh

.

I am not sure where you pulled this quote from, I do not see it anywhere in this thread. Also, I was more looking for his response to be explained by him. I'm also curious if his answer has changed at all in the time since this thread was started.

Cool thread. With these stacks I think 88 is best because it has the most value and most flexibility. Can check back and induce bluffs, etc, can flop overpairs...Followed by KJ -> as FWF said, vs described villain, flopping TP is pretty huge, and when KJ flops a pair, it flops top pair mostly. Then 75s, would be better deeper, or if we could somehow check-raise all in, as is, villain is check-jamming on us so we are calling rather than raising our draw. A2s clearly the worst, weak aces never flop anything, are hard to play, rarely extract much value on A high boards, etc.

So 88, KJ, 75s, A2s

Just read this thread for the first time and the consensus seems to be KJ>88>>>>75s>A2o. Just wondering if the HSNLers who posted origionally have the same opinion or has it changed in the last couple of years since the thread was started?

hey this man plays poker. I would add that A2s is often dominated by their calling range which is generally AQ, AJ, and mid pocket pairs that think they somehow stand a chance against me out of position.

awesome

my opinion is the same, as well as the part that it varies vs. different types of players with different pf ranges and/or flop tendencies

im stoked this thread got bumped as so many of the best hsnl posters have chimed in with an opinion back before strategy was guarded so intensely. even tho its dated its all still really insightful and much more informative than any of the stuff in the threads that get posted these days.
instead of figuring out what is "best" im just having fun absorbing all this free information and getting nostalgic about how awesome this forum must have been back in the day. BLd, MDMA, cts, stinger, jman, durrr and many others all in the same thread. thats good readin'

Jman likes 57s for sure...

Full Tilt Poker Game #11529850867: Table Hansen Blender - $500/$1000 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 21:06:30 ET - 2009/04/05
Seat 1: HarrisMP ($33,500)
Seat 4: Erik Seidel ($31,000)
Seat 5: Gus Hansen ($40,291), is sitting out
Seat 6: MR B 2 U SON ($78,197)
Seat 7: durrrr ($91,187.50)
Seat 8: OMGClayAiken ($46,900)
Seat 9: trex313 ($28,594)
OMGClayAiken posts the small blind of $500
trex313 posts the big blind of $1,000
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
HarrisMP folds
Erik Seidel folds
MR B 2 U SON folds
durrrr folds
OMGClayAiken calls $500
trex313 has 15 seconds left to act
trex313 raises to $3,000
OMGClayAiken calls $2,000
*** FLOP *** [8c 5s 6h]
OMGClayAiken checks
trex313 has 15 seconds left to act
trex313 checks
*** TURN *** [8c 5s 6h] [Jc]
OMGClayAiken has 15 seconds left to act
OMGClayAiken bets $1,200
trex313 has 15 seconds left to act
trex313 raises to $7,200
OMGClayAiken has 15 seconds left to act
OMGClayAiken calls $6,000
*** RIVER *** [8c 5s 6h Jc] [4s]
OMGClayAiken bets $20,400
trex313 has 15 seconds left to act
trex313 has requested TIME
trex313 calls $18,394, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $2,006 returned to OMGClayAiken
*** SHOW DOWN ***
OMGClayAiken shows [5c 7c] a straight, Eight high
trex313 mucks
OMGClayAiken wins the pot ($57,185) with a straight, Eight high
trex313 adds $35,000
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $57,188 | Rake $3
Board: [8c 5s 6h Jc 4s]
Seat 1: HarrisMP didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Erik Seidel didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Gus Hansen is sitting out
Seat 6: MR B 2 U SON didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: durrrr (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: OMGClayAiken (small blind) collected ($57,185)
Seat 9: trex313 (big blind) mucked

KJo > 88 > 75s > A2s

Why do I find KJo better than 88? Because 88 basically will be a super strong hand for 100bb in 15% of the time; a marginal vbettor in like 10% of the time; a decent bluff catcher in like 30. Thats kind of nice, but the problem is all of those small pots are situations where KJo either bets flop and wins, double barrels and wins or delay cbets and wins, which kind of makes 88 a set-mine with the added bonus that we won't be bluffing to contest the pot. Think of it this way - combining all of the EV+ opportunities to semibluff-6 outs flop, bet flop - shove turn, or delay cbet to turn and river will yield quite a lot of EV. 88 not having to bluff in those same spots can increase the EV only that much.
And this leaves 88 to rely on about 15% for a monster and 10% for a marginal vbetting opportunity. KJo on the other hand will have a decent pair or better by the river in like 50% of the time. And those 50% will vary between a decent bluff catcher/ thin vbettor and a great 100bb hand. While it may not be such a great favourite when it gets it in, it just wins way more medium sized pots which adds up significantly. Not to mention that 88 will show higher EV with a smooth call than with a 3bet, which is doubtful for KJo.

Why do I rate A2s so low? Cause we basically cant vbet our ace against any decent range (even if we check it to river and then vbet vs a decent player we can expect a check-raise bluff or good hand occ, a call by a marginally better ace and only rarely a call from a worse hand) and it's questionable if we can even call one bet, as opp will have a hard time finding enough hands to bluff with and will happily vbet most of his better hands that peculiarly take a large proportion of his preflop range to begin with. The 2p potential is basically worthless for 3bet pots as A2 hitting is a little better than 27 hitting and the fd potential is a decent bonus, but we can't really be happy to get it in with a fd on flop, so at most we can rely on the questionable assumption that we can extract good value by checking flop with our fd.
AND A2S IS A ****ING GREAT HAND TO WASTE BY 3BETTING

75s on the other hand wins a lot more by getting a fold on any street, will bluff a lot of scare cards and is great to check behind with a draw/delay cbet/ show down a small pair. I'd say that I prefer to have 88 than 75s when I 3bet in pos, but I'd rather flat 88 and 3bet 75s.

Wow, I should cut down on the coffeine and restrain myself better from writing such posts lol.

Edit: I think the ones saying 88 > KJo are vastly overestimating the value of their hand on a low flop or as a small pot hand (I already covered most of that though) You basically can't bet call this hand profitably on a low flop against a range of 11.3%, which is the most any reasonable player will play. (88+,A8s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,AJo+,KQo)

Like 556o, we-bet call 88, up against 6.0% (99+,AJs+,KQs,87s,AQo+)
and we're 45% for the pot. Which means that we win 21bb 50% of the time and are 0 in the other 50%, which gives us 1/2 pot in EV in the rare occ we see a low flop. Which is exactly nothing as we're EV0 when he shoves, which makes the EV of 88 and KJo very much equal in this spot.
And the few spots where 88 can be shown down for a medium sized pot are so rare and the edge so small that it really doesn't add up to much.
If we check flop and don't balance it very well, a good mix of vbets and bluffs will let our opponent gain the whole pot with the majority (if not all) of his range when we don't spike our 8. And almost irrelevant - 88 does show too good of an EV with a flat to waste it. There is also a GT balancing concern.

Umm your deductive reasoning doesn't by any chance go trough pokerstove, does it?

AKo > JJ AQs > JJ in my game. Poker is not all about getting it in with the nuts. Both AKo and AQs will win 100bbs more often than JJ if you're outplaying your opponents. I'd rate JJ higher than those 2 in a hu game vs a total maniak and esp OOP , but its close.

I think the aq vs jj argument has been pretty well covered.

No jman responds. I read the whole thread looking forward to his follow up.

I'd 3bet KJo, then A2s, then 75s, then 88.

Well I'd 3bet KJo, A2s almost 100% of the time, and 75s often. And 88 never.

If the question is which I'd most like to have in a 3bet pot IP, it's 88 though.

thats a bit of a blanket statement, dont u think?