I guess we might never really know. I haven't played Girah myself, but I've discussed strategy a bunch with him and he seems very, very competent and intelligent, which makes it so weird and incomprehensible as to why he did this.

Kleptomania of the Gifted.

Awesome slip, and I beg to differ. Vouching implies taking responsibility for the person's actions, that's the true definition of the word in that context and the way most people would take it.
I think the caveat you mention exists only in your head and in those of Haseeb and Cates.
In the future, please let people know in advance that your vouching for someone holds absolutely no value at all.

Edit: Let me give you an example. If I make a bet with someone and you literally tell me you vouch for that person's integrity, I take it as meaning that you're "good for it", and that you'll pay me what the person owes me if he or she defaults on the payment.
That's what it's always meant in the gambling world and I can't believe that a HS player of your prominence doesn't know or chooses to selectively ignore that.

Jungleman literally vouched for that kid, and now you're saying that it doesn't mean anything and that he should not be held accountable for anything? This really shows some more than questionable ethics on your part. Please explain the discrepency (that is, if you even agree with my bet example).

Your post is completely delusional and calling out my ethics because you don't understand what vouching means is ludicrous. There's a HUGE difference between interpreting "I vouch that this guy is good for a 20k swap" as roughly "I have had a lot of experience trusting him w/money and it's always worked out well" and interpreting it as "I vouch that this guy will never do anything scummy"

Nobody interprets the HSNL xfer thread vouches as the latter and it would be crazy to do so

Similarly, to use your example if I vouched for somebody for a bet and they welch, I'll pay. if I vouch for them for a bet and you then trust the person enough to invite him over and while you're taking a dump he downloads a keylogger and hacks all your accounts, I think you would be bat**** crazy to tell me that I vouched for his integrity wrt his paying out on a bet and that I owe you your lost $

I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but some things here are definitely out of place. There is no way that this actual person is as intelligent and knowledgeable as so many (presumably intelligent people - high stakes players) seem to think he is, when he performs this kind of poor and obvious scam.

He is either dumb, but does a very (very) good job of impersonating intelligence and knowledge, or more people are involved. Hopefully the truth will reveal itself soon enough.

Edit: Ok, just saw your post in the other thread. I didn't know that the "I vouch for that guy" post had been taken out of context.

Obviously changes things quite a bit, although I honestly still think he should apologize for having pushed this guy down our throats so hard with Haseeb, because even though he didn't literally vouch in that context (which again, certainly makes a big difference), his words definitely induced a lot of people into trusting Girah more than they ever would have.

Right, and it was in the context of a 20k swap. Reading "I vouch for this guy" out of context is a huge mistake

And I agree that he owes an apology if, for nothing else, making a bad judgment call when a lot of people take his word as gospel. No doubt about that, but ascribing him responsibility for this in the "if you vouch for somebody and they stiff the guy you owe the full amount" sense is ludicrous

I know you are smart but you are being vague and some idiot might interpret this wrong.

What you are saying is you can only vouch for someone's "character" so much.

Say a player, lets call him Jose, is doing a P2P trade, a piece buying in a tournament, a stake, or something and they ask for a well respected person to vouch. (such as fwf for example) And you vouch for Jose in the thread or to me.

Then Jose steals.

Then you owe me the money that Jose stole.

Have a funny story about this. An old degen friend of mine and BBV/HSNL legend HIV asked me to vouch in his marketplace thread for his WSOP. I responded that I couldn't vouch because I didn't have the money to pay if he won the main event and stole the money.

(He ended up degenning/stealing the money)

Its sometimes vague, but a lot of times a vouch means purely that the debt is ON you if the person scums. (Like Mike, Worm, and Gramma in Rounders)

lol....we posted at the same time.....

its a moot point anyway, Jose paid back the 30k + another 30k right?

Thanks for helping me be clear, I'm discussing so many points b/w the two threads that at times I may not be putting it perfectly, but yeah, this

We don't really know how much money he actually has/had and also don't know he's really successful at poker at all. I agree there's probably more to the full story as it would make more sense that he was a cheater from the get go, as opposed to a legitimate poker player who just goes AWOL one day and decides from here on out to scam everyone. Who's to say the graphs/pt screenshots he posted up aren't a result of various people getting cheated over time, filtered results, etc. It would be pretty easy to attain godlike win rates if you are literally looking at your opponents cards the whole time. All I know is that i'm assuming the worst from here on out, especially after his reaction to the skype group when they confronted him. He actually tried to gain some sympathy after slowly driving a knife into everyones back! Jose, words can't even describe how big of a scumbag you really are.

I didn't dare post in nvg. I saw someone mention JJProdigy in the same sentence as this dude on page 1, laughed and resisted from posting.

As has been discussed many times.

On a scale of 1-10 in scumminess, multiaccounting tournaments is on the absolute bottom. (A lot of live guys STILL don't even think its cheating even though anyone smart realize its consensus cheating now, funny I still talk to some that don't think its cheating)

and what Jose did is 10/10 lock him up throw away the key. (with regards to poker community metaphorically speaking)

Please tell us you are pressing legal charges? Can the people scammed please just let us know their thoughts on pursuing legal means?

I prefer the NVG conspiracy theory that he isn't a poker player at all but merely a ghosted account/brainchild creation/puppet of Haseeb/Jungleman

Oh snap, he hasn't paid back yet? Yikes.