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Originally Posted by Tuma
setoverset -
1) generally, how much information do you (yourself) need to draw out from a person to accurately determine their type?
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This is actually a lot like handreading in poker. You can never be *totally* certain, but with enough experience you start to notice patterns and the better you get, the more consistent your educated guesses become, and the less information you need to make inferences and draw conclusions.
I write for a forum about this at
www.personalitynation.com, and usually we have people fill out a questionnaire discussing their values, life circumstances, and motivations. It's about 25 questions, iirc.
In person, it's a lot easier because you get things like tone of voice, physical appearance, body language, etc. and those grant a lot more insight into motivations and intentions.
Nevertheless, sometimes you get a "read" that seems really accurate and then you get more information and it turns out you were wrong, that the person was actually doing something for a very different reason than you thought and understands more (or less) than you thought he did, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
2) you said durrrr is likely an infj type. could you elaborate on the patterns you found to distinguish him from intj?
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I don't have that high a level of certainty on this one. Some people also think durrrr is INTP and I can't really refute that all that well. Also, the better you get at this, the more your reads become difficult to articulate because they become increasingly based on "feel" as defined by your experiences. For me, he doesn't "feel" like an INTJ in the same way it doesn't "feel" like this dude is value betting when he pots the river--but I know that doesn't help you much, so I'll try to explain what I'm seeing.
Basically, I think I see Fe (or extroverted Feeling, one of the two attitudes that distinguishes INFJs from INTJs) because of the way he goes so far out of his way to maintain social courtesy and respect at the table (unless someone is being deliberately disrespectful to him.) He does things like apologize for sucking out, immediately back down if someone he considers a friend (or otherwise part of his "tribe", which is a very Fe mentality) gets upset with him (like the HSP episode where Ivey complained about not being able to tell if he was saying "I've got it" or "You've got it" at showdown), etc.
This is something INTJs are almost invariably averse to doing. Te (extroverted Thinking, which INTJs have and INFJs do not) conceptualizes external relationships in terms of objectively measurable rules, laws, and logical structures. Avoiding something that's perfectly within objectively stated parameters just because it's "rude" is not something that tends to make much sense to Te types. (I remember talking with an ISTJ once who thought it was absurd that she should be expected to avoid sitting near other people on a mostly empty train--there's no written rule clearly stating it, so how can it be rude not to observe it?)
They rarely particularly care if someone at the table is irritated with them unless they've done something that can be shown to violate these more impersonal, objectively established rule sets.
Dwan is much more sensitive to social/cultural dynamics and expectations than the INTJ players I know of. His offer to reimburse Full Tilt players if FTP doesn't pay out also seems motivated by his desire to maintain the ethical credibility of the poker community in broader culture--this sort of "tribal loyalty" to "my people" thing is a big running theme for Fe. (Granted, an INTJ could also do this for a variety of other reasons, but this is just my interpretation.)
INTJ poker players (think Antonius, CTS, Hastings, etc.) won't often be actively or deliberately rude, but they won't go out of their way to uphold social courtesy or extend that sort of respect to other players unless there's some logical/strategic reason to do so (or if they just really really happen to like you a lot for some reason, but that falls under more of an Fi motivation for them.) They don't have the sort of Fe clannishness that you see in xxFJs (and to a lesser extent in xxTPs.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
3) how similar is intj to infj? are these two more similar to eachother than to any other type? if not, which types would you pick to be so?
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INTJ and INFJ are similar in that they share the same dominant attitude, that being introverted iNtuition or Ni. Ni is characterized by subjective, often subconscious interpretations of information based on internal, symbolic significance and hidden or non-obvious conceptual implications. It kinda goes out of its way to ignore the obvious, sensory, surface meaning of things and looks for the "hidden angle" that's buried underneath, as a standard mode of interpreting information. (INTJ and INFJ also share extroverted Sensation or Se as an inferior, or fourth and weakest priority, which accounts for their tendency to ignore obvious information/interpretations at times because they like to see themselves as experts at reading between the lines.)
Since it's a perceiving function (S or N, as opposed to judging functions, T and F), Ni doesn't do this in a linear or deliberate fashion. Ni types are known for their sort of arbitrary sudden insights into the underlying significance of things; they have a habit of "just knowing" things without really knowing why they know those things. (Watch CTS videos as he makes incredible reads based on "I dunno, I just have a feeling I'm good here" and then can't really explain how he knew that. He'll go Te on you all day with objective mathematical explanations for what you should
once you've put the guy on a range, but as for how he actually puts people on ranges, he's not all that great at explaining how his internal perceptions work.)
So Ni can lead to brilliant insights or profoundly absurd conspiracy theories; it just depends on the person and the context.
INTJs and INFJs differ in terms of their secondary and tertiary attitudes. Their Thinking (which deals with linear, logical, categorical structure) and Feeling (which deals with ethics, morality, human relationships, and aesthetics) are oriented in opposite directions. I would say that they're pretty similar to each other because they're the only two types with Ni as a dominant attitude; however, I would call INTJs more similar to ENTJs (and INFJs more similar to ENFJs) because those two pairings share all of the same attitudes:
INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se
ENTJ = Te Ni Se Fi
INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se
ENFJ = Fe Ni Se Ti
INTJs have Te (extroverted Thinking) as a secondary mode of processing and Fi (introverted Feeling) as a tertiary mode. They're most comfortable relating to the outer world through the aforementioned objectively measurable rule sets and systems. Their ethics are handled by very subjective and personalized internal beliefs which they are usually very hesitant to share openly, for fear of exposing weaknesses which might compromise their strategic advantage, or simply not being understood. They don't bend their ethical/aesthetic ideals to external expectations easily, unless an overriding objective logical/structural concern seems more important.
INFJs have Fe (extroverted Feeling) as a secondary mode of processing and Ti (introverted Thinking) as a tertiary mode. They're most comfortable relating to the outer world through the aforementioned collectivized ethical standards that form the tribal, "my people/not my people" concepts of relationships and loyalties. Their impersonal logic is handled by very subjective and personalized internal beliefs on the inherent fairness, balance, symmetry, and internal consistency of things. They don't bend their internal concepts of logical/structural reasoning to external expectations easily, unless an overriding ethical/interpersonal/tribal concern seems more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
4) can you tell my type based on this post?
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No, not really. There's not a lot of information. As a very rough guess I would assume you are some sort of xxTP type (which is characterized by having Ti, or introverted Thinking, as a primary or secondary mode of information processing), because you're trying to define terms and concepts to create an internally symmetrical model that explains ideas in a logically consistent manner for your own understanding.
That's not to say INTJs don't care about logical consistency; it's just that they use it primarily as a means of relating to the external world and organizing external entities; their private, internal worlds are governed much more by unstructured, abstract, often whimsical symbolic connections and interpretations of information.
There are also reasons lots of other types might approach this discussion in the way that you're approaching it, so I really can't say without more information as to what is driving your thought processes. Kind of like how the first time you see a new player do something like underbet, you think, "Well, he could be going for thin value, or he could be inducing, or he could be going for a cheap bluff because he thinks there's so much air in my range, or he could be betting small with the nuts because he doesn't think I'll call a bigger bet often enough, or he could be trying to represent a thin value bet", etc. The same action could mean a lot of different things.
Does that help? Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.
Two Plus Two
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