Am not saying jay is a scumbag but it most certainly isn't free money.

It is a small portion of a significant debt owed, depending on what he told this group of players in private (it is certainly possible that he may have also told them that he was the site owner, like he did to tommy). In which case you would have a perceived scenario where the possible owner of the site if paying himself before those of the debts of his customers.

I will reiterate that i said perceived but I think you would have to be pretty foolhardy not to seek some legal clarification on the matter. I suspect the reason doug suggests that he can not post more details is that there is some legal quandary to deal with.

pony i respect your measured approach to his matter,
i sometimes am known to get a little heated but will try to stay on an even keel from now on.

Still to reiterate a point, even if jay were the possible owner which he isn't,
not one dollar of this money was going to him,
it was going to other players. What BJ choses to do with his 50k with all due respect is not any of Doug's beeswax.

irrelevant

How so? If I moved money from Lock poker to juicy stakes and then juicy went down, could I hold my affiliate responsible even though i wouldn't have gotten paid from lock either?

Plus, it does sound like the OP enabled Doug and his crew to make money easier with ease of deposits, etc.

My question is relative because it appears Jay recruited people to the skin by claiming he was the owner and running a more efficient cashier than the network. He got people more likely to trust playing on that site than they normally would because of these claims. If he's in fact not the owner, and not any type of management, it calls his credibility into question and makes you wonder what else he is being dishonest about.

Maybe he had that wire sent to Doug and got Doug to initially agree to send the 50k to BJ because he promised more money was coming? Again I ask you, why is it that everyone else on the site gets fractions of their balance off these final wires from the site but Jay gets his 50k to blewjob covered 100c on the dollar?

You are taking what everyone else in this thread sees is a very complex situation and making it very simple to serve Jay's benefit. It's ignorant at best and suspect at worst.

+1

I am not getting paid 100c on the $ as other players are getting paid a fraction. It probably comes out to be pretty similar. I was owed ~190k and I am now owed ~140k because the wire that went to Doug.

i think what you are doing is worse buy twisting the facts around and using conjecture. Coming up with elaborate excuses about why Doug is not paying out as agreed.

but Jay gets his 50k to blewjob covered 100c on the dollar?

what 100c on the dollar?
even after BJ is paid the 50k he is still 6 figures in the hole on this,
jay is also still 6 figures in the hole with pokerone.
so who exactly is getting covered 100 cents on the dollar here?

You will come up with any excuse for Doug to not pay as agreed.
Oh the owner stiffed us so BJ you won't get that 50k now sorry, I will distribute it has i see fit.
Its not Doug's money. He was not misled about anything.

It's pretty clear to me that Doug doesn't have any claim on the 50k in question considering it was intended for blewjob and Doug agreed to this. The only person who has any say in what happens with that money is blewjob.

dan

So, if the amount owed is 600k, and the amount wired was 150k, and the amount owed to the player in question was 200k, wouldn't his proportional share be 50k as agreed upon? And that's what the guy with the money wants to pay you after you sign some papers, your proportional share? This isn't really a dispute about 46k, it's a dispute over what the difference is, right? Why not just eat the few thousand as the cost of attracting lots of players to a shady skin. Also, what's the deal with the credit? Sounds extremely unusual to be extended 6 figures of credit on a random skin, I can only imagine what kind of weird deals you had going.

Did this merge skin go out of business and pay its players, or did they do it full tilt style? Did OP get paid while people he lead to the site were still owed money?

If OP is owed 500K from this shady skin, and someone he convinced to play there is owed 1k, the guy being owed 1K should be paid first, before OP gets anything. Sounds like that is what Doug did with the 50K. Paid the people that SHOULD have been paid. Not OP and his shady accomplices.

That might be true in your poker world, but in the real world these transactions are illegal and likely criminal: Fraudulent_conveyance

Doug should have never agreed to this transaction in the 1st place, the only smart thing to do now is having it handled by a lawyer. Not so smart to admit to possible criminal behavior by multiple parties involved ITT. It's very simple: you can't distribute funds of a company you know to be insolvent as you see fit, whether you think it's done in a fair way or not. If you do, other creditors can recover the $.

So in this case if Doug send out the $ to BJ and another creditor steps up claiming his share of said $ then Doug is likely to have to pay this out of his own pockets. If I were owned significant monies by P1 I'd contact a lawyer ASAP to claim my fair share of the $$$ + punitive damages from the owner (a.k.a. Jay?) / Doug.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudulent_conveyance

Key sentence: However, when a debtor prefers to pay one creditor instead of another that is not a fraudulent transfer.

So Jay says we are sending you a $170K wire Doug and you agree to split it up $28k others and $50k Blewjob and Doug pays others but not Blewjob, well then it looks like Doug is violating his agreement. Doug says there is other info he can't talk about publically and Jay should discuss with his lawyer. Note he doesn't say, "I don't owe you" or "I'm not paying" or "I never agreed to pay Blewjob" , he says talk to his attorney. Also note he did pay the others. Only Blewjob didn't get paid who appears to be a proxy for Jay who appeared to be the owner before he wasn't the owner.

If I was Jay and once thought Doug was completely trustworthy I'd pick up the phone and call the attorney and at least find out what possible reason Doug has for not paying Blewjob. Maybe he just wants you to sign a release? Maybe there were other agreements Doug felt weren't met. There is obviously a good reason other than simply deciding to not pay. Rather than fight that maybe Jay just thinks Doug has so much money he can just shame him publically in to paying in order to clear his name. I sure hope Jay didn't threaten him with disclosure if he did not pay cuz I'm pretty sure that is extortion. I also believe calling someone a thief who has not been convicted could be considered libel, but I'm not an attorney, but Doug has one, ask him.

Only Blewjob didn't get paid who appears to be a proxy for Jay who appeared to be the owner before he wasn't the owner.

BJ isnt a proxy for Jay, blewjob is himself owed over six figures and is a winning high stakes reg.

Feel free to ask him yourself

Dan

Not so easy to judge if you're part of a scheme that involves a personal account of an employee of the insolvent business and that scheme makes the money end up with a person who undisputed claimed he was owner of said business.

So much truth to the above 2 posts by NitBag and GuySmiley. It's very clear there are a bunch of legal issues going on with paying out. I, and I assume no one in this thread, is actively practicing law so it's not as simple as saying "pay him his monies!!". It may appear as simple at that with our low level understanding of all the possible legal ramifications, but I think if each of us thinks about it some it will become clear that there are some potentially serious risks which may or may not include money laundering, fraud and anything else that may be associated with moving money from a shady ass site to it's customers.

Also, and again I am far from an expert, but the point has been raised that since Jay sent Doug the wire initially, that it must have been in good faith. At first glance, this may appear true...but what if there were other issues that was preventing Jay to pay them directly?

Speaking to his lawyer has zero negative effects if you don't sign anything you don't want to. Doug came in here and said there are legal issues and to protect himself he needs you to talk to his attorney. I agree, the fact that Jay is so adamantly against this raises suspicion in my eyes. Doug isn't going to risk his entire reputation over 50k...is that even one buyin for some stakes he plays? Pick up a phone, setup a meeting with the attorney and then make an educated decision. You don't even need to hire an attorney to represent yourself, again there is no negative that can come from an open communication channel.

Pick up a phone, setup a meeting with the attorney and then make an educated decision. You don't even need to hire an attorney to represent yourself, again there is no negative that can come from an open communication channel.

you cant be serious....
guy has hijacked your money is ignoring all attempts of contact
and you think a meeting with this person's attorney without you having representation is a good move? Go watch Law and Order lol.

So the next obvious question is so hire a lawyer then no? Sure even better get a lawyer in NY or Las Vegas for 10 or 20 dimes and hope he gets you the rest of your money. Or accept Doug's offer of a % and sign away your rights to the rest of the money. This is almost like legalized extortion. This is why Jay chose to post. There really was no other option for him.

what bad can come from it, and then compare that to what the potential upside is.

- JnyC

- Dan

? - seems like a proxy to me.

Also,

- BJ

Just to clarify, is BJ owed affiliate money or poker winnings or both? This is an extremely important piece of information to clear up because if this 50K is associated with affiliate money...

Not really sure who's right here, but just wanted to say that around this time 2 years ago Jay was attempting to get me to switch to P1. He was pretty persistent in trying to get me to switch. He never once mentioned anything about him being an owner specifically, but when I was trying to negotiate rb he consistently would phrase it as "I can do x". While this is not particularly guaranteeing anything, I still would be a little upset with him if I had ended up switching and losing money because of his persuasion and I would trust him less in the future. I never did switch to P1 as he wasn't able to offer high enough rb (his offer was 50% rb and quick no-vig cashouts as long as I kept rake:cashout ratio above 1) to justify it. Anyway like I said don't really want to speculate on either side but hopefully this helps.

Yes I agree that whole "gaining access" thing would be cause for concern. Who's account was money wired from and were they the one who authorized the transfer?

This is so rediculous. He doesnt need a lawyer to have Dougs lawyer explain the situation to him. In all honesty I think Jay already knows. How does Jay know what is needed to be signed if he doesnt ask.

Your arguments are purely based on speculation

imho, it is worth scrutinizing why they decided to convey the entire 150k to wcg in the first place. it was likely to minimize their liability in anticipated legal proceedings, avoid creditors, taxes or wash money. this sequence of events suggests to me that they may have intended to set wcg up with all the risks associated with questionably extracting money from an insolvent and possible fraudulent business.

wcg would be foolish to do anything other than what he is doing. don't cave to the pressure associated with these accusations.

My apologies on not being more active in this thread. I still don't have stable wifi.

I just want to clarify the following: I am very happy that it was possible to get whatever the total amount of monies was paid out. The situation was as such that there was a large probability of complete non payment. We got very lucky that 1. There was monies that the assistant had access to and 2. That he was willing to do what is right. He could have very easily walked away from the whole situation and there would be nothing any of us could have done about it.

And also in regards to posting this thread and accusing Doug of theft. It was not a decision I made lightly. Every attempt was made to settle things with Doug on a fair level. He just chose not to cooperate. This thread didn't have to exist at all. It would have been a lot easier to wait for Doug's lawyer to stop procrastinating and send the paperwork Doug wants to be signed, take percentage he's willing to pay out...which would amount to roughly half, eat the rest and move on. Bj is not a proxy. He did not get paid his share. I vouched for Doug's credibility and so the debt falls on me. Had I not done that, it would have been bj trying to collect his portion.

Why dont u start commenting about log skypes?

^