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Jman's River c/r Hand of the Week (300/600nl) Jman's River c/r Hand of the Week (300/600nl)

05-24-2009 , 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl0r0x70
Why hasn't anyone talked about how this hand was:

1) One pro playing on another's account

vs.

2) Another pro actively soliciting advice from two other pros in the middle of a hand: "theUsher and Urindanger were sweating me and right as I bet, I asked what they would do if he raises."

I know that all these guys are deified in these forums, but wtf. . . . How is this ok?
Because two years ago it was a part of the online culture, it wasn't considered a big issue at the time.
05-24-2009 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetMeLive
clorox, prob because this hand happened in like 2007...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmill
Because two years ago it was a part of the online culture, it wasn't considered a big issue at the time.
Actually, you hear about it all the time if you're listening for it.

I think the 2+2 podcast recently had an interview with one of the top limit players where he found out he was playing a HU team after a high limit holdem match was over. There was another recent interview with a top MTT pro who had just won a WCOOP event literally minutes before, and you could hear the cheers of his friends -- presumably including his professional poker playing roommates -- who'd been sweating him the entire time. There's stuff like this all over the place, as well as the mountains of less explicit material.

And mikech brings up the real-time coaching angle. If you're during a coaching session, the EV and playing style of an MSNL grinder could be dramatically different if they've got a top HSNL player advising them as they play. How is that fair to the opponents? I mean, we are playing for real money during a coaching session, right?

I think we should explicitly be ok with all of it, or be ok with none of it. Of the two choices, being ok with all of it seems like the only feasible option.
05-25-2009 , 12:26 AM
what are you even talking about?
05-25-2009 , 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefort
I'm shocked (unless I missed it) that nobody in this thread was curious what Phil would do with Ax on the turn.. I'm going to assume he'd bet, and also assume that he'd often bet it as a bluff (if he didn't already have a pair). That should be a pretty big factor in both river VBing and CRcalling decisions..
You missed it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggbman
J,

A few quick thoughts... If you think your hand is worth a value bet on the river, then you would need to call a shove because PA will be able to recognize from your line that your hand is almost never one that you want to felt. Additionally, the chance that you could be bluffing here (this seems like a reasonable enough spot without any info to the contrary) could create a thought process here for him like "Well he could be bluffing here often and obviously he would have to fold all those hands, and additionally there is a decent chance he is making a thinnish value bet and will fold to my AI.

With all that said, i strongly disagree with your river bet in general. When you say that he has been c/r many flops and is probably doing so that he can fastplay hands in the future and get paid off, i imagine that to be completley true, it's pretty standard operating procedure in any mid-high limit NL game. However PA is one of the most sucessful NL players out there, and he is going to very his play a lot and do many counter-intuitive things in all likelyhood. I would imagine that there are many situations where he would take a line to [censored] with you, like here you discount the possibility of trips right away because he doesn't c/r the flop. Now I am honestly not good enough to discern if this is a spot where he would very rarely make that kind of variation in his play, but he's gotta do it somewhere right?

Furthermore, by your logic that he should never be very strong on the flop, if you had held A-T in this hand, you would basically have to felt the turn 100% of the time right? I mean he would re-raise better aces Pre-flop and can't have trips or a better two pair so your hand would be the nuts! My point is that with good high limit players who mix up their play, and will do weird counter-intuitive [censored], i mean it's only like 3rd level thinking. I would expect that your line of thinking there is pretty dangerous. And of course lastly, the board has gotten pretty bad for a lot of his hands. You could have Ax of course, the 7 fills gutterballs, your turn/river combo looks like pot control with perhaps a middle to large PP, and unless he has a huge leak to C/R bluff the river i just don't imagine that he pays off enough to make the bet worth it, especially considering that pure floats with be fairly common here by him (Unless like i said he c/r bluffs the river WAAAY to much) So overally, i think the river bet is pretty bad with the knowledge you had, and the call of the c/r is fine, not obviously correct, but fine.
Fantastic post, ggb. It would be cool for us to further examine some of these points.
05-26-2009 , 02:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman28
...I think an ace bets the river too almost all the time...
I disagree on this, so if you could explain your reasoning for this assumption it would be great.

I think A-high is a big part of his c/calling range on the flop, so if he bets it on the river he is turning his hand face up and not giving you the chance to bluff or value bet worse.
What would be his range for leading the river? It's 99% top pair and very hard to balance with enough bluffs to expect a call.
What would you do if he led the river? I think fold, based on the above.

Also, I think you would vbet the turn with AT-AK (and maybe weaker aces), specially with 2 fds that you could be barreling with, so it's very hard for you to have an ace. For the same reason I think you would never slowplay a 9, and probably not a FH either. I also think that you would check behind a reasonable amount of your ace-high hands on the flop.

With this said, I think he would be correct to c/r the river for value with top pair (or at least with AT and A8). I disagree with his willingness to lead top pair and I think you rarely have him beat, except if you had 77.
05-26-2009 , 07:57 PM
with this line surely river either goes bet/call or check/check... bet/fold is ******ed...
If you are in such a horrible dilemma when a c/r arises (which sounds likely wit said villain) then don't bet...
05-26-2009 , 09:25 PM
Just a quick question. Do you think that he is ever turning a missed flush draw into a bluff here?
04-25-2010 , 06:25 PM
another bump for this being one sick hand.
04-26-2010 , 01:09 AM
[ ] bet river
[ ] ever
[x] why did you bet river? I honestly don't know if you were bluffing or trying to value bet?
04-26-2010 , 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canoodles
[ ] bet river
[ ] ever
[x] why did you bet river? I honestly don't know if you were bluffing or trying to value bet?
how about reading the thread
04-27-2010 , 11:38 AM
i think a big ace can raise this river given that u pot control weak aces on the turn and will definetly bet a 9 on the turn
05-18-2010 , 03:53 AM
super sick, but i think i would have to call but that could just be me leveling myself or w/e. Its a very confusing spot that i would just need to call and find out or my brain will knot itself or somethin
05-18-2010 , 10:07 AM
folding this would be just plain awful
06-20-2011 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mborg23
another bump for this being one sick hand.
^
Great read.
06-20-2011 , 07:09 PM
did we call?
06-21-2011 , 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearless2k
did we call?
we did, 'villian' shows 22. worth reading through though imo
06-21-2011 , 07:27 AM
STOP THE BUMPTARDAGE
06-21-2011 , 10:26 AM
This is one of the best hands posted in HSNL forum. I remember reading it before, but it was still interesting to read it again.
06-26-2011 , 07:03 PM
snap call
06-29-2011 , 02:32 AM
lol at snap call, I think it's prolly a bad call in a vaccum, unless he floats flop with like K-high. It's pretty clear that he either 1) has a hand that he thinks has some showdown value on the river (otherwise he would have donked river), but when hero bets, villain realizes he can't call, and decides to rep 9x or a big ace, given that our range is so weak. So what hands can he do that with? Kx, and like 22-44. 5x is strong enough to check/call river.

Or 2), he actually check/called flop with A-high/9x and decided to check/raise river. Ax is obv strong enough to check/raise river with since we never check back turn with a strong hand...

So yea, if you routinely see him check/calling like K6s on this flop and trying to get to SD with it, then I guess bet/calling river is fine... but otherwise he just has too few hands to bluff with to make it a good call imo.

Just read thru it, and that probably made zero sense, but whatevr, can't be arsed to edit it all...
06-29-2011 , 07:24 AM
no, ifs, that's excellent analysis.

i came to the conclusion that if we're betting, we should bet/call since our range is so weak and we never have a monster here. but i never considered that his bluffing range is actually pretty narrow. although i do think he c/r a few Qxdd and 5x hands. i think c/cing with 5x here is pretty bad actually. so yeah, i think i'd still call if i bet against a good opponent.
02-21-2013 , 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverboatking
FWIW your hand def. looks like an ace.
you C-bet the flop get called, pick up top pair so you have showdown value so obv check behind.
then when he checks again to you time to value bet the ace.
for that reason from villian's perspective its a great spot for a value shove river CR.
wooooah, was checking back turned top pair the thing to do in 07? I can only imagine how unbalanced everyone was on the turn in these spots.
02-21-2013 , 10:56 PM
that river bet!
02-22-2013 , 06:29 PM
in 2007? lol fold all day dood
08-01-2014 , 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman28
I called. He had 22.

In hindsight, I don't think he is ever calling with a worse hand. However, I don't think he can have a better hand except for 88 or 77. I think the call of his shove is actually standard in this spot, but the bet itself has no value except for inducing the c/r.

I agree with those who said that a c/r is his only river play with a big hand, and I agree, but I don't think he can have a big hand besides 77 with the flop action. I think an ace bets the river too almost all the time.

So yeah. I think betting may have been a mistake or is marginal at best, but calling was not.
What a sick play....

      
m