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Old 12-26-2008, 12:39 PM   #151
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

yes i'll be playing online and live while i get reinstated
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:44 PM   #152
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Guys, sorry my tone came off the wrong way here.

I am not encouraging him to go get arrested.

I realize that he has already completely made up his mind before posting this online that there is no chance he is setting foot in there without getting reinstated first, that would clearly be SUICIDE!

I am simply arguing the point that he COULD, if he wanted to, in order to illustrate the complete idiocy of the foxwoods security/staff. I did the same thing and I wish to emphasize that this demonstrates the foxwoods staff is utterly incompetent and blithely unaware, that is all really.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:57 PM   #153
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

I'm not a HS reg but just happened to stumble accross this forum, and there are a lot of good replies.

I've worked at a few different casinos and I can tell you the ways you shouldn't approach it. I don't think it would be in your best interest to pull the "you need my business" card. Or the petition thing. Foxwoods is one of the largest casinos and they don't make that much money from their poker rake in relation to other games. They are losing business from an individual customer just to be replaced by a different one.

Just come from a place of sympathy, tell them how much you enjoy Foxwoods and that you've never had any problems there. Take full responsibility for the situation and don't sound like a victim. If you go around playing the blame game, I can assure you you're not going to get the results you're looking for. I would try to talk to someone by telephone, but if you can't speak to anyone of importance, write a letter.

Responsibility is key while writing this letter, I'm telling you! They don't want to know about Frankie cheating or what the actual details were in the equity chop. They want to know you are in full understanding of the rules and what you did was wrong!

Also, take this into consideration. In order to enroll them into reinstating you, you have to tell them what's in it for them. How are they going to benefit from reinstating you? Create a win/win situation with whoever you're talking to and the results will follow!
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:01 PM   #154
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I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

I know both Todd and Frankie Flowers as I'm a regular at Foxwoods too. I don't play in the 10/20 NL game but I'm a regular in the 5/10 NL.

About Frankie: He's an upfront guy that brings life to the table and game. He does well in the cash games and tournaments and it's hard to find anyone in the room that dislikes him, other than Todd. I've never seen or heard of Frankie "cheating" or "colluding" prior to this bull***t being posted.

As for Todd: He wants to talk about cheating. I've been in the 5/10 NL game when he buys in for the max of $2000. Most of the players, especially during a weekend game, will have stacks ranging from $2000 to as much as $10,000. If you check Todd's chips ten minutes after he's sat down, and without his having won any substantial pots, he has close to $5,000. He sneaks several purple ($500) chips into his stack under his black ($100) chips. This way if he's involved in a big hand, he has way more than the original $2000 buy-in. Wouldn't that be considered "cheating". If Todd is on the up and up, he should have let the hand play out as is was suppose to instead of making a deal.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:28 PM   #155
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Hey Frankie
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:32 PM   #156
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Sounds like a nice thing some 2p2ers in the area could do is go to Mohegan instead of Foxwoods this weekend and help HEK start a 5/10 or higher game. I know you don't want to just play a bunch of 2p2ers but hopefully, if it runs for a few days straight it will become a regular game at that room and recreational players will come to play it.
Also, it sounds like Mohegan is a better room that you guys would prefer to play at if the higher games ran there.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:41 PM   #157
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

wuddup frankie

how'd that workout for ya

welcome to the internet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badcompany20 View Post
I know both Todd and Frankie Flowers as I'm a regular at Foxwoods too. I don't play in the 10/20 NL game but I'm a regular in the 5/10 NL.

About Frankie: He's an upfront guy that brings life to the table and game. He does well in the cash games and tournaments and it's hard to find anyone in the room that dislikes him, other than Todd. I've never seen or heard of Frankie "cheating" or "colluding" prior to this bull***t being posted.

As for Todd: He wants to talk about cheating. I've been in the 5/10 NL game when he buys in for the max of $2000. Most of the players, especially during a weekend game, will have stacks ranging from $2000 to as much as $10,000. If you check Todd's chips ten minutes after he's sat down, and without his having won any substantial pots, he has close to $5,000. He sneaks several purple ($500) chips into his stack under his black ($100) chips. This way if he's involved in a big hand, he has way more than the original $2000 buy-in. Wouldn't that be considered "cheating". If Todd is on the up and up, he should have let the hand play out as is was suppose to instead of making a deal.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:47 PM   #158
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
Sounds like a nice thing some 2p2ers in the area could do is go to Mohegan instead of Foxwoods this weekend and help HEK start a 5/10 or higher game. I know you don't want to just play a bunch of 2p2ers but hopefully, if it runs for a few days straight it will become a regular game at that room and recreational players will come to play it.
Also, it sounds like Mohegan is a better room that you guys would prefer to play at if the higher games ran there.
I know your heart's in the right place w/ this suggestion, but this idea is teh fail on many levels.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:34 PM   #159
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badcompany20 View Post

About Frankie: He's an upfront guy that brings life to the table and game. He does well in the cash games and tournaments and it's hard to find anyone in the room that dislikes him, other than Todd. I've never seen or heard of Frankie "cheating" or "colluding" prior to this bull***t being posted.

.
this^^^^^ ive known flowers for years and never heard anything like this b4.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:59 PM   #160
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

You definitely received unjust judgment by getting 86d because of this. This would equal terrible customer service. Usually what you do after getting horrible service is use you feet and get better service elsewhere in the free market economy, but I understand that to a poker player this may not be an option. The games may be the best in the same place where the service is worst.

However, you certainly made mistakes here.

1) The equity chop. When the floor told you you have to do it "by the side" you were really stupid to think to assume that means you can just split the chips right after the hand is over. Obviously you can't do it at the table, because it affects your stack sizes. If that was allowed they could just let the dealer do it because it's the same result.

2) Getting into an equity chop with a more or less complete stranger in the first place.

Maybe it's just me or me playing PLO for living, but I don't really get the need to protect from variance in basic 60-40 situations when playing your bread and butter game. Since you are rolled for 10-20, I could understand making this kind of deal if you were taking a shot playing 100-200 or 200-400. 60-40s come and go, they even out. Much more risk is involved in getting into shady transactions with people you don't know. I'm really hesitant to even make these kinds of deals with regular players I know, but don't really consider my friends.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:04 PM   #161
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation Casino :

v. :

Todd ‘HEK’ :

v. :

Frankie Flowers & Mike Dentale :


O P I N I O N

JTL, writing for the Court. The defendant, Todd HEK, convicted by a jury of Foxwoods security, appealed from the judgment to the two plus two court of appeals. He contended (1) that he was unfairly deprived of more than $2,000.00 by Mike Dentale’s breach of a pot equity contract, (2) that the trial court jury erred by excluding at trial hearsay statements that Mike the floor allegedly made to the parties to the contract, and (3) that a lifetime ban is cruel and unusual punishment for the crime for which the jury convicted the defendant.

Before the court addresses the defendant’s issues raised on appeal, it is necessary to delve into the historical relationship between the parties in the matter in order to meet out justice in the case before the bar.

Although the court’s understanding of the event significant to the parties’ history originates solely from hearsay it is nevertheless sufficiently certain of the circumstances to re-state that history here:
Several months ago, HEK was in a five or six-handed NLH game with FF and someone who is friendly with FF. There was aggressive betting action pre-flop that seemed not have made perfect poker sense to a high-level poker professional . . . something similar to FF flat calling a raise, a raise by FF’s friend, a call by HEK and then an all-in raise by FF. After said action, HEK thought that the action by FF and his friend seemed sufficiently dubious for HEK instruct the dealer to not muck the hands of the participants and to call the floor supervisor (hereinafter referred to as floor). HEK pleaded his case to the floor, who stopped the game, spoke individually to FF and then to his friend, and then examined FF’s hand and his friend’s hand. At the conclusion of the floor’s investigation, the floor was not convinced that collusion occurred. The game continued with all persons continuing to participate, and with no person receiving a sanction.

Since HEK accused FF of cheating, FF has harbored extreme disdain and ill will toward HEK. This court believes FF is seeking retribution for being maligned before his of his peers and since that day has sought revenge. FF recognized the pot equity dispute as an opportunity for retaliation and seized upon this fortuitous circumstance to torment the defendant, HEK.

While the court does not sanction FF’s actions, as those actions interfered with a fair pot equity agreement between parties who had a mutual understanding and meeting of the minds, FF’s actions, though not honorable, are somewhat mitigated when one considers FF’s hatred for HEK slandering FF’s name by accusing him as a cheater, with, at a minimum, insufficient evidence to warrant such a public and persistent accusation. Moreover, as HIV astutely brought to the court’s attention, it is extremely unlikely that FF was staking Mike Dentale. FF would not be playing $5 $10 while having his horse play in a bigger game. If FF's bankroll would have allowed, he would most certainly have been playing in the bigger game.

Similarly, despite his frustration at believing he was being colluded against, it is less than honorable for HEK to post on the most well-known internet poker forum that “I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so.” HEK may have then suspected and may now still believe FF was colluding against him, but HEK certainly does not have the proof of that sufficient to make the above statement. It’s unfair and inaccurate to say HEK caught FF in the act of cheating. One can imagine the disdain for HEK one would have if one were not colluding and in FF’s situation . . . being accused of cheating, having the floor investigate, having the floor conclude that there is insufficient evidence to justify the accusation, and then have the accuser continue to tell people, “I caught FF cheating.” One may even resort to telling others to ‘F HEK’, whether or not HEK deserves to get F’ed in an unrelated situation.


Based on the testimony of the parties and the brief of the defendant, the court holds as follows:

1. The only villain here is Mike Dentale. He agreed to a pot equity chop, whether or not it was sanctioned by the casino. He agreed; he didn’t pay. He should be shunned as the dishonorable and untrustworthy person he is for breaking his word and stealing $2,000.00 from HEK.

2. For all the ways HEK exacerbated the situation, contributed to getting himself thrown out, and gave an incomplete version of an essential back-story involving himself and FF, he isn’t a villain. This author has not seen HEK do anything shady in the many hours I’ve played with him. I think sneaking extra chips on the table in a capped game is shady and cheating; I haven’t seen him do even that.

3. FF did to HEK in real life what HEK is doing to FF in this post: throwing gas on a bad situation and fanning the flames in an effort to see his nemesis get burned, irrespective of whether throwing gas is the warranted and uncaring if the flames get so big that the nemisis gets burned more than he deserves. Imagine, HEK if FF stated to all who would listen at FW: “Yeah, Foxwoods banned HEK - for life - because that scumbag cheater was caught breaking the rules and was caught trying to take chips from another player’s stack.” While technically true, it is wholly inaccurate . . . not that dissimilar to “I caught FF cheating.”


4. FF shouldn’t have advised Mike Dentale to “ ‘F’ Todd (HEK) – don’t pay him anything; tell him I put you in the game and tell him if he has a problem with not getting paid to see me about that problem’” in retaliation for HEK accusing him of colluding.

5. HEK most certainly does not deserve to get banned from FW, not even for a day. He did, however, contribute to his own banning by going to FF, who was playing poker at another table, and engage him in a discussion that began, essentially, “despite that you are a scumbag, I am taking the high road and moving on” . . . a discussion that may very well have inflamed an already tense situation. HEK did not get thrown out after the pot equity chop; he got thrown out after he lit a small spark on the casino floor by confronting FF and it turned into a three alarm conflagration, necessitating that security be dispatched hose down the arsonist.

And, all concerned should know that the floor was not out to get HEK, nor was he favoring FF or Mike Dentale. The floors are not allowed to take tips. I have never seen a floor take a tip, nor have I ever in my four years of playing at FW heard of any floor ever taking a tip. I am not justifying the floor’s ruling or behavior, but it was not to favor anyone nor to influence HEK getting thrown out. The Foxwoods floors’ rulings are as random as the distribution of cards, but like cards, they are equally random for all players. (There are good floors, too, such as Mark Rathburn, who consistently makes appropriate rulings and goes to bat for the players’ rights).

In addition, the court recommends that in order to address the third of defendant/appeallant's claims, HEK, sans legal representation (at first), take direct appeal of the Foxwood’s security jury’s ruling by requesting an in-person meeting with someone higher than anyone on the security team. Once before that higher-up, state the truth: that HEK was under the misimpression that he and another consenting player could chop a pot; he proceeded to attempt to chop the pot under the floor supervisor’s supervision (as evidence that HEK had no bad or surreptitious intentions). When the floor supervisor clarified that chips can not go from one player’s stack to another player’s stack other than as a result of the outcome of a hand, HEK made no further attempts to take chips from the other persons’ chip stack. Further, the unintentional conflagration ensued much later, when HEK addressed the misimpression with someone believed to be involved in the decision not to abide by the two players’ mutual agreement. HEK is sorry for the trouble he caused as a result of a misimpression; it will never occur again; HEK will never light a spark at FW casino again, and that he's supporting his family, kids, dog, etc. . . . good luck to HEK.

Lastly, for all those posters who say "FF is a scumbag" I bet few of you know him and none of you has the guts to say what you posted to his face . . . you are also the ones on whom judgment should be passed.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:14 PM   #162
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HEK View Post
With the floor right there overseeing the whole process and not saying otherwise, there was no reason to think I couldn't transfer the chips. I obviously should have covered every base though.



I'll post more detail after this thread has run it's course. It was a common form of collusion though: working together to win pots w/o showdown and chopping the money up between hands (or after as well).
whats the hold up on explaining the cheating maybe your accusations is what got you banned after all foxwoods is a business and i dont think they appreciate you publicly accusing there customers of cheating in earshot of other customers.

If the accusations held any weight I'm sure you would have said what they were from the first post but I imagine your a pussy and you dont really have any solid evidence of cheating. After all you let some young kid rob you of 40 percent of the pot and if i was gonna get banned it would have been for kicking his ass not yelling what seems like false accusations of cheating. I would not have to rely on kicking someones ass cause i have enough common nsence to be able to talk the villian into giving me the 40 percent pot.

sorry for the bashing I guess asking you to teach me how to win at poker is out of the question?
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:39 PM   #163
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

wow, A+ JTL........agreed on all counts.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:54 PM   #164
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

hah, i wondered if maybe you got rusty from not practicing(right?) john, guess not. good post
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:08 PM   #165
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

As a fellow regular in the highstakes games at Foxwoods I mostly agree with the sentiment in JTL's mock legal statement or whatever that was. The fact that HEK suspects FF cheated in the past is irelevant to the current situation. The person at fault is the Mike Dentale character as he is the one who actaully backed out of the deal; regardless if this was because of the advice from Flowers. As pointed out by Jon, FF may be very mad and out to get Todd if he actually had actually not cheated and had his reputation abd character questioned in front of his peers. I am in no way saying that Flower's trying to screw Todd is in anyway accetable, I just can see what his motivation might be if his character was falsely tarnished. For the record, I am friednly with both FF and HEK so I consider myself an unbiased party. Obviosly Foxwoods action of kicking him out is ridiculous and unwarranted. Good luck in getting reinstated Todd. I think it will all work out sooner or later
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