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Old 12-29-2008, 04:15 AM   #251
pnycff
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

The issue is HEK's ability to get back into Foxwoods. Given that he has relied on the games provided by foxwoods to put food on the table for his family for an extended period of time, Foxwoods needs a pretty damn good reason to ban him from their property regardless of whether or not they are a private institution etc.

Im not saying you are wrong but why is in this any way relevant?
I cant go to casinos in vegas that have banned me from counting cards and say its how i feed my family
Why would he have more rights here than some random donkey?
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:03 AM   #252
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Its relevant only in that it may possible for someone to interpret some law such that a case exists. As I said in my last post, I am by no means a legal expert. While I am the 28 year old son of a very highly respected labor lawyer in the midwest, and I am going to lawschool in the near future, my expertise lies in business and what motivates managers. HEK has been playing @ FW in good standings for quite some time as I understand it. A decision maker will look at this incident and make a no brainer decision to let him continue playing poker at his/her casino rather than deal with a legal headache regardless of how many advil it may take to get rid of it.
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:19 AM   #253
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by johnnybeef View Post
Its relevant only in that it may possible for someone to interpret some law such that a case exists. As I said in my last post, I am by no means a legal expert. While I am the 28 year old son of a very highly respected labor lawyer in the midwest, and I am going to lawschool in the near future, my expertise lies in business and what motivates managers. HEK has been playing @ FW in good standings for quite some time as I understand it. A decision maker will look at this incident and make a no brainer decision to let him continue playing poker at his/her casino rather than deal with a legal headache regardless of how many advil it may take to get rid of it.
that makes sense- i was just wondering how its relevant from a legal standpoint
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:02 AM   #254
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

playing in the foxwoods poker room for many hours over the course of a year sounds really depressing..

view this as a blessing..
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:22 AM   #255
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Things I do not understand, that I would like to have clarified:

-- If HEK was banned for the equity split side-deal, it would follow that Mike Dentale was banned as well. Is this this case?

-- The reason for HEK getting banned was explained as the equity split; but apparently that split never occurred. How is he banned for something that never took place?

-- If the floor did indeed sanction the equity split as HEK described, how did HEK still get banned? Is it reasonable that the floor didn't know equity splits are not allowed?

-- I would assume HEK would plead to the manager that the floor stated he could do the equity split. Was the floor never interviewed about what transpired? If he was questioned, unless he lied, I don't see how/why HEK would be held responsible?

There are many things involving this situation that don't seem to make much sense. I don't know HEK or anyone else involved, nor am I questioning their integrity.

I just wonder if perhaps the real reason he was banned was for the confrontation with FF, and the equity split was just used as the justification? Or perhaps there is something else here I'm missing?

The situation as described just doesn't make a whole lot of sense:

-- The other player involved in the split was seemingly not similarly banned
-- The equity split was stated by the floor as being acceptable
-- The equity split never occurred

...and yet HEK gets banned for life from the casino for the equity split? Does not follow...
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:33 AM   #256
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by 88Orange View Post
Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation Casino :

v. :

Todd ‘HEK’ :

v. :

Frankie Flowers & Mike Dentale :


O P I N I O N

JTL, writing for the Court. The defendant, Todd HEK, convicted by a jury of Foxwoods security, appealed from the judgment to the two plus two court of appeals. He contended (1) that he was unfairly deprived of more than $2,000.00 by Mike Dentale’s breach of a pot equity contract, (2) that the trial court jury erred by excluding at trial hearsay statements that Mike the floor allegedly made to the parties to the contract, and (3) that a lifetime ban is cruel and unusual punishment for the crime for which the jury convicted the defendant.

Before the court addresses the defendant’s issues raised on appeal, it is necessary to delve into the historical relationship between the parties in the matter in order to meet out justice in the case before the bar.

Although the court’s understanding of the event significant to the parties’ history originates solely from hearsay it is nevertheless sufficiently certain of the circumstances to re-state that history here:
Several months ago, HEK was in a five or six-handed NLH game with FF and someone who is friendly with FF. There was aggressive betting action pre-flop that seemed not have made perfect poker sense to a high-level poker professional . . . something similar to FF flat calling a raise, a raise by FF’s friend, a call by HEK and then an all-in raise by FF. After said action, HEK thought that the action by FF and his friend seemed sufficiently dubious for HEK instruct the dealer to not muck the hands of the participants and to call the floor supervisor (hereinafter referred to as floor). HEK pleaded his case to the floor, who stopped the game, spoke individually to FF and then to his friend, and then examined FF’s hand and his friend’s hand. At the conclusion of the floor’s investigation, the floor was not convinced that collusion occurred. The game continued with all persons continuing to participate, and with no person receiving a sanction.

Since HEK accused FF of cheating, FF has harbored extreme disdain and ill will toward HEK. This court believes FF is seeking retribution for being maligned before his of his peers and since that day has sought revenge. FF recognized the pot equity dispute as an opportunity for retaliation and seized upon this fortuitous circumstance to torment the defendant, HEK.

While the court does not sanction FF’s actions, as those actions interfered with a fair pot equity agreement between parties who had a mutual understanding and meeting of the minds, FF’s actions, though not honorable, are somewhat mitigated when one considers FF’s hatred for HEK slandering FF’s name by accusing him as a cheater, with, at a minimum, insufficient evidence to warrant such a public and persistent accusation. Moreover, as HIV astutely brought to the court’s attention, it is extremely unlikely that FF was staking Mike Dentale. FF would not be playing $5 $10 while having his horse play in a bigger game. If FF's bankroll would have allowed, he would most certainly have been playing in the bigger game.

Similarly, despite his frustration at believing he was being colluded against, it is less than honorable for HEK to post on the most well-known internet poker forum that “I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so.” HEK may have then suspected and may now still believe FF was colluding against him, but HEK certainly does not have the proof of that sufficient to make the above statement. It’s unfair and inaccurate to say HEK caught FF in the act of cheating. One can imagine the disdain for HEK one would have if one were not colluding and in FF’s situation . . . being accused of cheating, having the floor investigate, having the floor conclude that there is insufficient evidence to justify the accusation, and then have the accuser continue to tell people, “I caught FF cheating.” One may even resort to telling others to ‘F HEK’, whether or not HEK deserves to get F’ed in an unrelated situation.


Based on the testimony of the parties and the brief of the defendant, the court holds as follows:

1. The only villain here is Mike Dentale. He agreed to a pot equity chop, whether or not it was sanctioned by the casino. He agreed; he didn’t pay. He should be shunned as the dishonorable and untrustworthy person he is for breaking his word and stealing $2,000.00 from HEK.

2. For all the ways HEK exacerbated the situation, contributed to getting himself thrown out, and gave an incomplete version of an essential back-story involving himself and FF, he isn’t a villain. This author has not seen HEK do anything shady in the many hours I’ve played with him. I think sneaking extra chips on the table in a capped game is shady and cheating; I haven’t seen him do even that.

3. FF did to HEK in real life what HEK is doing to FF in this post: throwing gas on a bad situation and fanning the flames in an effort to see his nemesis get burned, irrespective of whether throwing gas is the warranted and uncaring if the flames get so big that the nemisis gets burned more than he deserves. Imagine, HEK if FF stated to all who would listen at FW: “Yeah, Foxwoods banned HEK - for life - because that scumbag cheater was caught breaking the rules and was caught trying to take chips from another player’s stack.” While technically true, it is wholly inaccurate . . . not that dissimilar to “I caught FF cheating.”


4. FF shouldn’t have advised Mike Dentale to “ ‘F’ Todd (HEK) – don’t pay him anything; tell him I put you in the game and tell him if he has a problem with not getting paid to see me about that problem’” in retaliation for HEK accusing him of colluding.

5. HEK most certainly does not deserve to get banned from FW, not even for a day. He did, however, contribute to his own banning by going to FF, who was playing poker at another table, and engage him in a discussion that began, essentially, “despite that you are a scumbag, I am taking the high road and moving on” . . . a discussion that may very well have inflamed an already tense situation. HEK did not get thrown out after the pot equity chop; he got thrown out after he lit a small spark on the casino floor by confronting FF and it turned into a three alarm conflagration, necessitating that security be dispatched hose down the arsonist.

And, all concerned should know that the floor was not out to get HEK, nor was he favoring FF or Mike Dentale. The floors are not allowed to take tips. I have never seen a floor take a tip, nor have I ever in my four years of playing at FW heard of any floor ever taking a tip. I am not justifying the floor’s ruling or behavior, but it was not to favor anyone nor to influence HEK getting thrown out. The Foxwoods floors’ rulings are as random as the distribution of cards, but like cards, they are equally random for all players. (There are good floors, too, such as Mark Rathburn, who consistently makes appropriate rulings and goes to bat for the players’ rights).

In addition, the court recommends that in order to address the third of defendant/appeallant's claims, HEK, sans legal representation (at first), take direct appeal of the Foxwood’s security jury’s ruling by requesting an in-person meeting with someone higher than anyone on the security team. Once before that higher-up, state the truth: that HEK was under the misimpression that he and another consenting player could chop a pot; he proceeded to attempt to chop the pot under the floor supervisor’s supervision (as evidence that HEK had no bad or surreptitious intentions). When the floor supervisor clarified that chips can not go from one player’s stack to another player’s stack other than as a result of the outcome of a hand, HEK made no further attempts to take chips from the other persons’ chip stack. Further, the unintentional conflagration ensued much later, when HEK addressed the misimpression with someone believed to be involved in the decision not to abide by the two players’ mutual agreement. HEK is sorry for the trouble he caused as a result of a misimpression; it will never occur again; HEK will never light a spark at FW casino again, and that he's supporting his family, kids, dog, etc. . . . good luck to HEK.

Lastly, for all those posters who say "FF is a scumbag" I bet few of you know him and none of you has the guts to say what you posted to his face . . . you are also the ones on whom judgment should be passed.
I enjoyed the fire motif throughout this post.

HEK, seems like you got royally screwed here. Take the advice others are offering- be patient and maintain your composure like you seem to be doing, and I'm sure things will work out for you. Best of luck.

Who knows, maybe it will work out to be a blessing in disguise... I'm positive that if you're as good as the regular posters in this thread believe you to be you could crush low stakes online.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:32 AM   #257
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by johnnybeef View Post
I'm not in lawschool quite yet...but, this. Given that you derived your income from there for an extended period of time, you certainly have some sort of case against them. They would probably let you back in immediately rather than deal with the headache, and all it would take would be a letter from a lawyer which would cost you less than $100.
I am a lawyer, and this is a huge stretch. First, Foxwoods is not HEK's employer, and I would be dumbfounded if there was a case that treated a casino as a player's de facto employer. Thus, there is no way he will recover any damages in the form of lost income. This is a long way of saying that it makes absolutely no difference from a legal perspective whether he was a regular player or derived significant income from Foxwoods.

Second, no lawyer will write a letter for $100. It will cost him more than $100 just to meet with the lawyer and explain the issue. IF HEK gets a lawyer, he should understand that it is solely for the purpose of creating the impression that he will be a persistent pain in the ass until he is reinstated.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:14 PM   #258
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

unemployment office IMO

but seriously thats really ****ty, please update regularly on situation
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:07 PM   #259
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

I just got back from Mohegan late last night. I'm spending time with my kids throughout the day so I will have to wait until tonight to post my thoughts and answer questions.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:09 PM   #260
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

That's sucks HEK.

Also this thread is getting so strange!
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:44 PM   #261
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo View Post
I am a lawyer, and this is a huge stretch. First, Foxwoods is not HEK's employer, and I would be dumbfounded if there was a case that treated a casino as a player's de facto employer. Thus, there is no way he will recover any damages in the form of lost income. This is a long way of saying that it makes absolutely no difference from a legal perspective whether he was a regular player or derived significant income from Foxwoods.

Second, no lawyer will write a letter for $100. It will cost him more than $100 just to meet with the lawyer and explain the issue. IF HEK gets a lawyer, he should understand that it is solely for the purpose of creating the impression that he will be a persistent pain in the ass until he is reinstated.
All of the above, plus:
Practically, Foxwoods can ban anybody, anytime, for any reason, or no reason. They do NOT have to be fair. They do NOT have to provide any rationale, reasonable or not. (Stupid, arbitrary or unfair decisions may be poor business, but they can make them if they choose.)
Also, as an Indian tribe operating on "sovereign" territory, they can simply claim US state and federal courts lack jurisdiction (they may lose this, but it would take the plaintiff huge time and $ to ever get there.). State Gaming Commission has some leverage through the original compact with the tribe, but I have not heard of them aggressively advocating for individual players and doubt that it would happen in a somewhat subjective case (and in any event would also probably take forever).
I strongly recommend the non-legalistic, non-confrontational approach suggested by some other posters, at least as a first try.
You can always hire a lawyer later, or try the "pressure" approach, if soft approach fails or if you ever think that it's a good idea. Good luck!
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:06 PM   #262
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

haven't seen it mentioned yet, but it seems to me the floor staff is just covering their own asses in banning you. Floor person allows an equity chop, which is not allowed, altercation follows, rather than admit that their floor staff screwed up, they ban you, problem solved. Kinda like in the military when someone ****s up and it goes up the chain and all of a sudden the guys involved get medals instead of getting in trouble. In your attempts to get unbanned, i'd stress that you don't want to see anyone get in trouble because of your actions etc...
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:34 PM   #263
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Wow, Foxwoods is so ****ing retarded. Ugh. Good luck getting back in Todd.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:23 PM   #264
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Wow, Foxwoods is so ****ing retarded. Ugh. Good luck getting back in Todd.
Negreanu mentioned in his post, that he wont go back there, because they withheld taxes although there was no need for it, seems like they are screwing up big time.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:59 PM   #265
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Sorry for the thread whiplash, but i just wanted to say that really sucks and hope it gets worked out (didnt read whole thread so no idea if it did or not)
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:17 PM   #266
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moki View Post
Things I do not understand, that I would like to have clarified:

-- If HEK was banned for the equity split side-deal, it would follow that Mike Dentale was banned as well. Is this this case?

-- The reason for HEK getting banned was explained as the equity split; but apparently that split never occurred. How is he banned for something that never took place?

-- If the floor did indeed sanction the equity split as HEK described, how did HEK still get banned? Is it reasonable that the floor didn't know equity splits are not allowed?

-- I would assume HEK would plead to the manager that the floor stated he could do the equity split. Was the floor never interviewed about what transpired? If he was questioned, unless he lied, I don't see how/why HEK would be held responsible?

There are many things involving this situation that don't seem to make much sense. I don't know HEK or anyone else involved, nor am I questioning their integrity.

I just wonder if perhaps the real reason he was banned was for the confrontation with FF, and the equity split was just used as the justification? Or perhaps there is something else here I'm missing?

The situation as described just doesn't make a whole lot of sense:

-- The other player involved in the split was seemingly not similarly banned

-- The equity split was stated by the floor as being acceptable
-- The equity split never occurred

...and yet HEK gets banned for life from the casino for the equity split? Does not follow...
You're the second person to ask this that hasn't noticed that it HAS been answered; Foxwoods told HEK that Dentale was banned as well. Obviously HEK is not in a position to know if that's really true or not.

As far as your other stuff, you've hit on the prevailing wisdom: That the actual reason for his banishment was ruffling the feathers of a preferred regular, but they need to get him on a technicality, whether it was a strong one or not.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:59 PM   #267
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by MrEleganza View Post
You're the second person to ask this that hasn't noticed that it HAS been answered; Foxwoods told HEK that Dentale was banned as well. Obviously HEK is not in a position to know if that's really true or not.
Apologies; I did read the entire thread, but apparently I missed this. Thanks for pointing it out.

Quote:
As far as your other stuff, you've hit on the prevailing wisdom: That the actual reason for his banishment was ruffling the feathers of a preferred regular, but they need to get him on a technicality, whether it was a strong one or not.
Likely so... I just wonder how the interview with the manager went. Even if they are are trying to cover their collective arses, it would be pretty hard to do so if the floor said "Uh, yeah, I told him he could do that" -- and it would be difficult for him to lie with the dealer and other players being witnesses.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:59 PM   #268
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by johnnybeef View Post
I'm not in lawschool quite yet...but, this. Given that you derived your income from there for an extended period of time, you certainly have some sort of case against them.
.
.
.
Given that he has relied on the games provided by foxwoods to put food on the table for his family for an extended period of time, Foxwoods needs a pretty damn good reason to ban him from their property regardless of whether or not they are a private institution etc.
Get ready for a wake up call in law school, yikes.
I am a lawyer. Foxwoods can eject him and tell him he's not welcome back if they don't like his haircut, or the way he looks at them sideways.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:25 PM   #269
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
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I'm writing a letter to foxwoods which should be finished within the next day or so. I'm sending that regardless of any other move I may make in conjunction with it.

What should my NEXT move/moves be? Many of you provided some excellent advice. So should I...


Start an online petition? (do you REALLY think this will do any good?)

Hire a lawyer to contact foxwoods?

Call the gaming commission (or have a lawyer do so)?

I need to make sure my next step is the right one. I don't want to piss them off and make them ignore my case for 3 years. It's a fine line I think.
Lawyer is a waste of money IMHO. You don't want them looking at you like a problem, a problem they can just permaban at their leisure.

I got kicked of of the Woods, twice in fact, back in my drinking days.

What I did was call the POKER ROOM MANAGER. I talked, made my case, apologized and made nice. She (Kathy was the manager way back when, dunno who it is now). let me back in, completely bypassing 'security'.

Both the old Mohegan room and the Woods room managers ran the rooms like their own little fiefdoms, and the main casino left them alone, and were happy to do so.

Now, the PR manager may tell you to get lost, I don't know, but that's where I would start.

And be nice.

7
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:53 AM   #270
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybeef View Post
I'm not in lawschool quite yet...but, this. Given that you derived your income from there for an extended period of time, you certainly have some sort of case against them. They would probably let you back in immediately rather than deal with the headache, and all it would take would be a letter from a lawyer which would cost you less than $100.


Edit: I have read the rest of the thread. The issue at hand here is not FF or Mike Whateverhisnameis or any of that jazz. It has nothing to do with who is calling whom names on a message board, or even the agreement made over the equity chop (gambling related debts are not legally viable in this country.) The issue is HEK's ability to get back into Foxwoods. Given that he has relied on the games provided by foxwoods to put food on the table for his family for an extended period of time, Foxwoods needs a pretty damn good reason to ban him from their property regardless of whether or not they are a private institution etc. As I aluded to in my op HEK's main goal with a lawyer is to expedite the process of getting his lifetime ban removed. If you seek counsel and he finds a legitimate case (again, I am not a lawyer, nor have I taken my first law class...but I am friends with several and my father is one, so I know how the system works) this process will get you back in to FW very quickly for relatively little money.
I am a lawyer. This post is terrible.

1. No lawyer in private practice does anything for $100 unless they are doing you a favor.
2. FW does NOT need ANY reason to ban him from the property.
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:54 AM   #271
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

i hear a rumour another 5/10 reg named "chuck" was perma-banned today

unknown why
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:57 AM   #272
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

Don't get a lawyer involved. You aren't going to sue them into allowing you to play again. You aren't going to scare them into reinstating you through legal threats. You aren't going to get them to admit that their floorman and head of security are totally incompetent. If you seem like a loose cannon who is angry at their casino, they will not want you as a customer.

You need to convince whomever you can that you are a loyal customer who has played tons of hours there without incident and who consistently follows the rules and will continue to do so if allowed back despite the confusion and misunderstanding regarding the equity deal.

Last edited by bobbyi; 12-30-2008 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:02 AM   #273
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

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Originally Posted by LegallyBlind View Post
what possible reason could foxwoods have for not allowing equity chops or running it twice?
They are only allowed to spread games approved by the state gambling commission using the structure approved by the gambling commission. They define holdem as having a single turn and river with the winner getting the pot.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:43 AM   #274
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

A large part of the unfair ruling probably has to do with the fact that Foxwoods wants the people playing there to know that they have strict rules and they enforce them strongly. They were probably discussing to themselves before they talked you, "Well if he goes back to play and tells everybody he got off with a warning, what does that make us look like?"
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:24 AM   #275
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Re: I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)

well frankie flowers defintely looks like he using tanning beds if that makes u feel any better
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