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| High Stakes PL/NL Discussions about high stakes pot-limit and no-limit hold'em (10-20 and up) |
03-29-2008, 07:58 AM
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#301
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Flip'landia
Posts: 12,150
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Re: HU Button Raising
Guys... Just simplify the problem a little bit.
Give the button to the BB
This is essentially what xorbie suggests.
Now you have a very simple problem to solve.
Which scenario is more profitable for a player:
A) playing SB IP and BB OOP with a full stack size
or
B) playing BB IP and SB OOP with a third stack size
To simplify it even further, in case B you are paying one or two SB to get position both pre and postflop.
This boils back down to the how much does a button cost HU in relation to the stack size.
Now I am not qualified to do the exact math, but someone should be able to determine the equilibrium stacksize based on his sample size.
And I think there were weired sites in the past where button belonged to the BB. In particular I remember 6 max games on some European sites a year ago which would give the button to the BB after the table becomes two handed. I think it was ongame or tribeca, can't remember now.
Anyway, I am not sure if this logic is flawless, but I think there is something to it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Last edited by corsakh; 03-29-2008 at 08:18 AM.
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03-29-2008, 09:01 AM
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#302
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 847
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by corsakh
And I think there were weired sites in the past where button belonged to the BB.
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This is still the case on Party.
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03-29-2008, 09:43 AM
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#303
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journeyman
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 327
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Re: HU Button Raising
Yeah, thats a good point. Will anyone play 38% SB vs BB in a 1-3 game? And theres the slight difference that while in sb vs bb you know BBs range is 100%, in this case you can only assume, which is not irrelevant.
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03-29-2008, 10:30 AM
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#304
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Self banned
Posts: 15,552
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Re: HU Button Raising
NYC has a pretty amazing ability to throw out false truisms, then when challenged to back up his assertions with cash, run like Carl Lewis, while simultaneously attacking all and sundry for refusing to refute his claims with HU challenges. It's almost beautiful. Just when you think 'How can he wriggle out of THIS one?', he just comes back with a post with a brazen post on a level even more monumentally stupid than you've ever seen from him before. This one was pretty awesome, but in general I prefer when you spout utter nonsense, get countered with a bunch of winning 200/400 arguing against you with polite logic and/or math, then say 'whatever, you geeks are all wrong and I KNOW IT!!!!!!!', followed by something along the lines of 'you refuse to provide me with any logic and/or math to refute to claim and are close minded'. They are my favorites.
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03-29-2008, 10:38 AM
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#305
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old hand
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: lambo
Posts: 1,767
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Re: HU Button Raising
I said its impossible to arrange something realistic. Obviously me playing where I have the BB every hand the game totally changes psychologically. It can't be done without me also playing the SB. It can be done in the scenario I described before but that match couldn't happen in reality, only in theory. Why not just a bet that I can show a profit in the BB vs someone in a hu match? That's essentially the same as what you have been recommending. can someone tell me how, on pokertracker, to figure out how filter the stats position page to look at just 1 stake/table like 10/20 stars fr for example. this way I can see my exact ratio of SB to BB profit.
Here's a question for the math guys, what do you expect that ratio to be?
and the 200/400 players have all agreed that raising 100% against a good player is a big mistake. only the armchair math guys have disagreed(or the bum hunters). and partygirl, show me where u have seen any sound logic against what I have said?
and partygirluk, as much u hate me offering to play anyone(at my stakes), doesn't it say alot when NO ONE steps up? maybe im not as stupid as u think? There are tons of guys on this board who regularly play 10/20. So many of these are the ones critizicing me and saying I don't understand poker. If i thought someone was dumb and didn't understand poker id be first in line to play
Last edited by nycballer; 03-29-2008 at 10:48 AM.
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03-29-2008, 10:50 AM
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#306
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journeyman
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 257
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycballer
and partygirluk, as much u hate me offering to play anyone(at my stakes), doesn't it say alot when NO ONE steps up?
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I know that you have trouble with this concept so PM me if you need more explanation:
Many players turn down small edges in favor of larger ones.
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03-29-2008, 10:51 AM
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#307
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,409
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Re: HU Button Raising
nyc--
in PT, go to Preferences, and make sure that only your HU tables are checked under the 'Game Levels' option. Then go to position stats tab (like 4th from right) and it will have your stats and your winnings/winrate from the SB and BB.
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03-29-2008, 10:53 AM
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#308
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old hand
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 1,389
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Re: HU Button Raising
nycballer, we play 10/20 for 20k hands, and after we're done we look at your win-rate from the BB to see if you're winning or not. How much are you willing to bet on the side?
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03-29-2008, 11:08 AM
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#309
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Queens Park
Posts: 41,811
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotkis
nycballer, we play 10/20 for 20k hands, and after we're done we look at your win-rate from the BB to see if you're winning or not. How much are you willing to bet on the side?
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this sounds like a fair challenge, i'd be next in line too.
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03-29-2008, 11:15 AM
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#310
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Self banned
Posts: 15,552
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotkis
nycballer, we play 10/20 for 20k hands, and after we're done we look at your win-rate from the BB to see if you're winning or not. How much are you willing to bet on the side?
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Can I have first dibs on a sidebet on your BB action NYC? I'm happy just to take 10/20 worth of your BB action, so effectively you are playing 10/20 from BN. 20/40 from BB? Or we can just bet 20K (or more) on the side that you are + or -? Thanks.
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03-29-2008, 11:19 AM
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#311
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Self banned
Posts: 15,552
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Re: HU Button Raising
Btw I'm looking to take action on NYC welshing out of Kotkis's bet. Kotkis you want some insurance?
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03-29-2008, 11:28 AM
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#312
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centurion
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 134
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotkis
nycballer, we play 10/20 for 20k hands, and after we're done we look at your win-rate from the BB to see if you're winning or not. How much are you willing to bet on the side?
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I want in
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03-29-2008, 01:44 PM
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#313
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,117
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Re: HU Button Raising
nyc,
are you saying that your vpip from BB will be ~50%? thats a pretty dumb adjustment.
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03-29-2008, 04:52 PM
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#314
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: captain of team fold
Posts: 5,111
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfish
nyc,
are you saying that your vpip from BB will be ~50%? thats a pretty dumb adjustment.
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huh? getting your vpip above 38 %from the bb is the only adjustment you can possibly make vs someone opening 100% of buttons (to make opening 100% -ev)
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03-29-2008, 04:57 PM
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#315
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newbie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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Re: HU Button Raising
Quote:
Originally Posted by corsakh
Guys... Just simplify the problem a little bit.
Give the button to the BB
This is essentially what xorbie suggests.
Now you have a very simple problem to solve.
Which scenario is more profitable for a player:
A) playing SB IP and BB OOP with a full stack size
or
B) playing BB IP and SB OOP with a third stack size
To simplify it even further, in case B you are paying one or two SB to get position both pre and postflop.
This boils back down to the how much does a button cost HU in relation to the stack size.
Now I am not qualified to do the exact math, but someone should be able to determine the equilibrium stacksize based on his sample size.
And I think there were weired sites in the past where button belonged to the BB. In particular I remember 6 max games on some European sites a year ago which would give the button to the BB after the table becomes two handed. I think it was ongame or tribeca, can't remember now.
Anyway, I am not sure if this logic is flawless, but I think there is something to it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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with reversed blinds sb is not closing the action. therefore he cant call as liberally as the bb in described 100% sb-raise scenario.
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