I currently play 100NL-600NL heads up (but with ftp money coming back I hope to be playing higher pretty soon) so I hope I'm qualified for a post here and if not whatever. I am not even close to a bumhunter. Those who know me, know I battle alot of regs. I post alot in HUNL, and feel like the elite HS guys are going to get their voices heard more than the vast majority of the HUNL community. I'm not talking about the pure bumhunters; they deserve to be washed from the games in my opinion, but I'm talking about the average guy who maybe bumhunts 60% of the time and plays regs 40% of the time. I fear these guys are not going to speak up against a super KOTH/limited tables system, because it's a HSNL thread with alot of well-respected posters, and elite players promoting these drastic changes.

I've just done a count of tables numbers:

50/100 - 12 tables (0 running)

25/50 - 60 tables (2 running)

10/20 - 94 tables (5 running)

5/10 - 128 tables (1 running)

3/6 - 127 tables (0 running)

2/4 - 146 (4 running)

1/2 -148 (14 running)


As you can see from the numbers above, there are a RIDICULOUS amount of tables open on stars, with hardly any games running. Now I completely agree there's a problem here. However if you imagine condensing those numbers down to say
5 tables at 25/50+,
10 tables at 5/10-10/20,
20 tables at 2/4-3/6,
which are some of the crazy numbers I'm hearing, it would far too drastic a change.


Problems with these VERY limited number of tables or pure KOTH:

Problem 1:
-Only the very elite players get tables. They will end up filling the lobby all through 2/4 - 50/100 and will leave absolutely no room for any players, even those who could be considered very good would not be in with a shot.

Problem 2:
-There would probably be less games running. The elite will occupy the whole lobby. They will not play each other anymore because they know they are making 10x the money they previously were from fish. The lesser players will not challenge the elite players as much as everyone seems to imagine imo.

Problem 3:
-The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Mainly focused on the rich getting richer. I can't help but feel the best guys are acting more in their own interest rather than in the state of the overall games. These top 5 25/50+ guys will get the fish to sit them 12x more often than previously. Thus they make 12x the money they previously did and benefit an unfair amount. Also the fish lose quicker (disheartening) vs the very best, but this isn't much of a point.

Problem 4:
-Stars will lose rake for a few reasons. The slightly weaker HU players who like to battle regularly with the slightly weaker players, will no longer be able to do so (this must be a huge portion of stars HU rake). Also alot of people might leave the site, and not play all the tourneys, 6max games, PLO games that they otherwise would have.



All this being said, it's clearly insane to allow people to sit at home all day every day, catch one mega whale per week and profit like 5k/week in this way.

What I propose is a far less drastic change to the table limit:

50/100 - 10 tables

25/50 - 15 tables

10/20 - 20 tables

5/10 - 25 tables

3/6 - 35 tables

2/4 - 40 tables

1/2 - 50 tables



Benefits of a structure something like this:

Benefit 1: -Flush out the mega bumhunters. Fish's money is distributed more evenly through actual decent plays and not sucky bumhunters, but it's not so extreme that only the top 0.01% get all the money.

Benefit 2: -There is alot competition for tables between good/medium/weak regs (no-one battles with elite guys either way). There would be way more reg battling, and the games would be more healthy with stars raking more.

Benefit 3: -Will not scare the fish anyway near as much as current system.


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Aside from the HU lobby layout, here are my other favorite suggestions:

1) Get rid of PTR! Stars really has to step it up with regards to to stopping these guys. Ftp managed it as far as I know. I know they have good tech people and stuff, but it's probably the proving the largest detrimental factor of all right now and why hardly any HUNL games are running.

2) Leaving the table on your BB. This is obviously a good thing for heads up. For 6max (which I play a decent chunk of too), I personally think it's absolutely fine, but can see that it might be a bit annoying for those playing more shorter sessions, so maybe it's dumb. But for HU please implement this.

3) Must move tables for 6max. Can't see a downside. Great idea. The current waitlists are absurd, and this has so many positives.


Finally,
@ the guys saying get rid of Heads Up. Come on!!! For one, Stars will NEVER make such a drastic decision as this, they would lose such a large player base. I get the feeling most people saying this are again acting in self interest so all the fish who like HU (which is alot - they generate alot of rake) will move to 6m/fr games instead. Also most people saying get rid of HU, don't play heads up. They don't need to look at the messy lobby (use filters) which they complain so much about. Also 80% of 6max players table select, alot very do so very heavily, so there's clearly a small level of hypocrisy going on here. Jesus, I mean completely abolishing heads up which is clearly such a fantastic form of poker is beyond ridiculous.


Peace

If sauce were interested he would be a good candidate based on his excellent post above.

Oh ok, except I love HU and play it quite a bit. If you have any useful suggestion this is the place to share them.

also a lot of guys IIT have contributed to this mess. Training sites have made things a lot more difficult.. information is so accessible.. idk if you did it to become known, or if you did it for the $, but it makes little sense in the long run. I play in a live game with a guy who was a 25 year veteran of NL poker. He read some books but never played online much. I don;t think he could beat 10NL 6max on stars 6 months ago. He got a DC subscription and 4 months later he is playing 100NL 6max, and he has expanded his library to almost every training site available..I would have said it was impossible for him to do so. You guys created these "meh regs" who all wanna hunt fish to eek out a living... It's a predatory game, even the industry of coaching/training sites works that way. A few guys line their pockets while making the games much more difficult/cluttered. Nothing can be done about it now obv. I just have no idea why anyone would want to teach masses how to get better/win especially when half of the video makers advocate rigorous game selection/bum hunting. essentially this is being promoted all over the place.. idk why any1 is shocked that the games have come to this.

edit: I should say we instead of "U" because i did coach about 70 ppl a cpl years ago.

This is a valid point. I am sorry I missed it before. That is a major flaw with the idea.

I don't play cash on Stars but I'm assuming you can't deny people action at HU tables?

Are you sure this isn't just because of willingness to play of those specific players frequenting those games? Seems to me like a cap would only lead to a cleaner lobby, not more action. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Unfortunately Party doesn't use use KOTH for lower limits, I don't think one limit on one site is enough to rely on.

Stars should make the HU system similar to Madden online. Have a lobby for each stake, anyone in the lobby you can click on thier name to send them a "challange". And have a chat box for every HU lobby, so people can request HU matches, warn fish about bum hunters, warn each other about hit n runners etc. If the rec players get challenged by 10 people at once, at least they can choose who they play.

And along with the lobby system you have a quick match system(randomly pairs 2 opponents quickly). All rec players would probably do quick match not wanting to mess with the HU lobby(because they get challenged by 50 people every time), thus equally spreading them out randomly. And when you enter a "quick match" you have to play a minimum number of hands before leaving the table. Maybe 50 or so. Then after 50 hands you are free to leave or stay for as long as you want. And if you get stacked you can obviously leave. And there would be no minimum number of hands for the regular lobby. Im sure people that have played Madden online knows what Im talking about. I think it would solve alot of the HU problems.

Everyone seems so worried about elite players having all the tables 24/7. I disagree that will be the case because there are only so many "elite" players and they aren't always playing. High stakes players are generally bad with putting in lots of volume imo. Everyone should be able to get their fare chance at the tables at some point throughout the day.

I haven't seen/heard anything about durrrr, Ike, jungle, urnot, etc being on stars since black Friday and if they haven't reinstated their accounts yet I doubt they will all of the sudden just because stars made a change or 2 to the lobby.

I also doubt someone like sauce, kanu, phil galfond is going to monopolize the highstakes HU lobby and dip into midstakes just to sit around to wait for fish. Most of these players became "elite" by working really hard and playing everyone. These guys aren't going to just sit back and play only recreational fish on one table. It's boring and Id bet most of them will tell you a good/tough multitabling HU match is one of the most enjoyable things in poker.

Edit: I know this has been beaten to death but stars won't lose rake from capping the tables. If anything rake would increase from people having to fight for their chance at keeping a table.

People who are concerned about weaker players being able to play weaker players for tables but can't because the best are occupying all the tables. I'm sure at least one person would get up to let you and another person start a HU match where you can "add more tables" instead of having to battle reg C to get the chance.

Point of the cap is to cap number of people on open tables waiting, not total. So if kanu is playing isildur1 on 4 50/100 and the cap is 5, there will still be 5 available tables even though they are playing. When that match ends, those close and the open tables will still remain at 5.

how does everyone not realize that by far the biggest problem and easiest and fairest solution is to stop allowing datamining. stars has dragged their feet so badly on this and it has screwed over so many different people with different interests. kill datamining and you change the climate (although i'd argue much damage has already been done) and make it much more fair for all players. if megabumhunters don't like it, they can't possibly complain it's unfair to ban it because no one can make an argument that they have a right to information on other players.

capped tables, anonymous, no HU, whatever it is all these ideas have major +'s and -'s and hurt a lot of people and help others. killing dataming may hurt some people but it is a purely good thing. the ONLY good reason for dataming is catching UB scum, but that is no justification for why a site we like and trust should allow it. they have never allowed it but have just been lazy and FTP had it solved before it went down.

They wouldn't be waiting nearly as long as they are now because the fish would be funneled to them. Instead of having a 1/40 chance of getting a fish they will have a 1/5 chance. It would be insane for them not to grab a table, minimize it, and wait while they're playing other games. As you know, they wouldn't have to only 1 table a recreational player, but would do it in addition to playing their other games. Arguing that elite players are going to pass up the extremely profitable situation KOTH would give them is false at best, dishonest at worst.

Capping HU tables with players only allowed to sit at 1 empty table per limit. If someone sits and you don't want to play then you must get up. New tables are generated after a few minutes of play on an occupied table.

Something like:
5 tables 50/100 & 25/50
15 tables 5/10 & 10/20
25 tables 2/4 & 3/6
50 tables all other limits

Guys who are worried about "elite" players hogging all the tables at 25/50+, that is an elite level! Those should be elite players! 15 tables at mid/high stakes and 25 tables at midstakes is plenty to encourage action and give seats to people who are willing to play.

There is not a convincing argument against this. It creates a less predatory looking lobby and encourages people who are occupying seats to play. This is also much more simple than something like HU rush with challenges or other extreme measures.

The global waitlist with must move tables solves a lot of problems as well. When a new table is created you are automatically seated. It should be against the terms of service to join the waitlist with the intention of not playing and repeated abusers should be banned. When you join the waitlist it can ask you how many tables you would like and then generate your name X number of times and place you as new games/ tables are created. The number of main games would depend on how many players are in the player pool.

What happens if we cap the tables at 10 for $25/$50, two players start a match, then they decide they want to 4-table against each other?

Hi Steve!

Thanks for participating in this thread and being open to our community's ideas.

In the scenario I was talking about, if the cap was 10 tables for $25/50 and 2 players wanted to start a match, then there would be 4 active tables running with them playing and 10 tables with 1 person sitting waiting for action (saying that there were enough people online to max out the table cap). I think adding an "add more tables" button into the software on each table would make multitabling matches infinitely easier than having to ask a 3rd reg, player C, for their table so that players A and B can play with eachother.

You could also do it the other way where there are 10 tables maximum and no new tables respawn even when 2 people are playing, but then that prevents other people from playing if too many matches are going on.

kanu7 vs isildur1 4 tables
nutsinho vs sauce123 4 tables
zeejustin vs hal0nization 2? tables when they want to play 4. That's why I suggested having tables respawn once action gets going.

Either way, any change is good!

I don't see any reason to cap the amount of tables that have people playing. You can keep spawning them indefinitely as long as there are people playing, all the better for the poker site. The only thing you need to do is enforce than when those matches end and one of the players leave, then the remaining player is kicked off the tables as well so that he ends up with only one table open. On iPoker are only allowed to join four empty HU tables, but you can get around this by joining the tables with people already sitting, and then have those people leave, thus bypassing the restriction, which is really stupid.