We've been 4-tabling for hours, match is very very crazy, I'm rr-ing a ton, he's 4-bet bluffing me a ton on the deep tables, we've both gotten it in real bad and it went from him up 30k to me up 10k to him up 30kish again.

He is ike's protege apparently, and Ike is definitely capable of potting something like QcT on the river with the intention of shoving over any raise.

Who just calls the river? Fwiw after thinking about this for awhile I think the only reason I should raise the river is if I'm trying to get him to shove.

Full Tilt Poker $25/$50 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

Hero (BTN/SB): $23730.75
mastrblastr (BB): $17496.25

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 5 7
Hero raises to $150, mastrblastr calls $100

Flop: ($300.00) 3 T 6 (2 players)
mastrblastr checks, Hero bets $200, mastrblastr calls $200

Turn: ($700.00) K (2 players)
mastrblastr checks, Hero bets $650, mastrblastr calls $650

River: ($2000.00) A (2 players)
mastrblastr bets $2000, Hero raises to $6150, mastrblastr raises to $16496.25 all in

i think you have to call against him

no idea if the money affects it (or how rolled he is or how much of his own action he has, etc.) but i would raise snap call if we were playing 5-10 and 10-20 and the dynamic was similar

edit: i only mention the $ difference because we've played a fair amount but it was never at higher than 10-20

edit2: i just think he can have a lot of stuff

Ace of clubs is on board, he needs to have the Qc in his hand

QcQ is not out of the question and QcJ too, but fwiw he SNAP shoved the river.

yea i re-edited, much more important than how quickly he shoved on the river, how long did you take to raise?

Interesting... I'm going to think about this hand a bit while I get ripped and then probably forget about it.

awhile, he had plenty of time to think about what he was going to do

This looks like a fold. There's a lot of TcX?, where is X is a club is well a decent portion of the time he does this. To play the role of Captain Obvious, you really have a bluff catcher at this point.

i don't think i could ever fold this here given your desription of the match. can't you be value raising tons of non-flush stuff? even with depth wouldn't you imagine he'd be a little more inclined to c/r river w a flush?

What sells the fold for me is that Krantz could easily have the same type of hand that mastr is repping, so it's a realllllly dangerous place for a big bluff.

I think the decision has to come down to if I was planning on shoving when I orig bet the river or what my intention is based on game flow. Does my lead look like its for value or a bluff / what am I VBing at that river / what am i playing as a bluff this way.

I think that's what's important for deciding how to react to the 3-bet

Given how the game has been going, what is my best way to get the most money in with the nuts, is it this line or is it c/shove based on the pressure and play-style you've used so far.

I'm curious to see how this convo develops and your comment about not raise/folding there

that's what i thought at first. i didn't think he would ever be thinking about leading a flush in order to bet/3-bet it. at the same time, if he's not thinking about that, then how is he capable of making a bluff like this? it would have had to occur to him in the 20-30 sec or so I took to think about raising.

i like how this hand was played. first of all the board came down great for a bluff on his part imo though the pot bet is sorta off putting but then agian HU The way the board came down it still not a bad bet by him. YOu know that so ylll bluff raise him sometimes(and likely make some smart thinish value raise with two pairs and the like), and he knows that so hell shove somtimes. hence call and play some 80s funk for good measure.


also see kq of spades if he feels like he can flop a k or q and do some damage to you (which i think he would) if he 3 bets it always then meh. Its HU with a couple of crazies i dont see anything you should do diff.

i dunno, but thats a lot of time.

I think this is a fold, the problem with putting him on a QcX bluffing hand is that I don't think he is going to pot the river all that often if ever with that type of hand.

In general, it's just a stretch to think that he decides to potbluff (is it even a bluff? either way it's just strange to me) a made hand on the river with the intention of 3bet bluffshoving over a raise since he has a blocker to the nuts - sure it happens every once in a while, but not nearly enough for you to be calling

edit: also since I am not too worried about getting bluffshoved on I obv like a river raise

Very rarely do I read a post and genuinely not have a pretty strong opinion. I have been thinking about this hand for the last 10 minutes, and still can't decide what to do.

The best I have come up with is that it seems criminal not to raise the river, especially given the dynamics of the match. And if you are really that convinced that he will like always 3-bet your raise, I would feel pretty confident about getting it in, generally speaking.

On the other hand, my intuition tells me that he has a nutted hand here and decided the best way to get the most money in is to bet/3-bet the river. I think theres a good chance he thinks you have air or a hand with showdown value that doesn't plan on betting the river. If you have air or a hand w/ a little showdown value, I think he expects you to raise the river a decent % repping a big hand. Or, if you do have a hand with showdown value, you might call down. If these assumptions are true, it makes a lot of sense for him to lead the river here w/ a big flush.

In practice, even if I did have a bad vibe about the river I would still raise, likely folding to a 3-bet. Without this bad vibe, I'm sure I would just get it in, admittedly not feeling too great about it.