and berating the fish lets him get through the mental struggle of the grind,

whereas 2p2 superstars don't need to berate the fish because they play less hands/less mental toll!

To each his own!

for my fourth and only actual serious post in this thread, i'll say this.

i'm guilty(est) of this, so i believe i'm qualified to post about it.

we all (most of you reading this) have more money than we should (okay, that's relative), and more money than almost everyone that is our age. once you get your first ten thousand, you look aat everyone that you see and you think "this sucker is going to work all summer for three thousand dollars, and i made three times that sitting at my computer!". then, you get your first one hundred thousand, and you start to look at business men and people's parents and think, "i made as much in a few months as they did all of last year, and i'm still in school!" then you get your first million and you say, (i'll let you know in a few months).

the point being, you think you're invincible, better than everyone you meet. sure, some of you are very humble, or have been humbled in one way or another- but the vast majority of "us" had 'i'myoungandrichandwillneverdieandballoutofcontrol forever" syndrome.

what we fail to remember (or rather, are ignorant of, or have to be reminded of, or something) is that there are bigger fish in the pond. we might be the cool kid on the block, but then we meet someone like Guy Liabrete ([sic]+apologize if it's butchered) who enjoys playing poker. the guy is not bragging about his sick bmw or rolex, he's busy building a 30 car garage for his mid-60s muscle car collection and deciding whether or not he wants to allow someone to do a major motion picture on his life. he's given as much money as you're worth to charity 20 times over.

and he has chosen to play poker with you, which is your forte. he doesn't ever have to know that he's an underdog. are you not thankful? if a businessman asked you to be CEO for a day, you think you'd make mistakes? i've spent a lot of my poker career playing in games where my EV was relatively unknown, but i sat anyways. i didn't care. i wanted to play, i wanted a shot, i wanted to make a hero call. i think there is a part in rounders to this effect, and if there isn't, there should be.

my point is amongst the clutter that there are always bigger fish to fry; there is always someone to make you look meager (unless you're bill gates or tiger woods maybe) but almost none of us have met this, relatively speaking.

ive found that the people that drive away the weaker players with their comments are the real losers as they are usually the marginal winners and will end up being the next generation of fish when they have chased away those that they can beat.

ive seen tons of money leave poker because of this and it will continue because of the ego of those that act that way. they are insecure with their own play so it makes them feel bigger by berating others.

what also happens is that those that stay, tend to lose to the players being friendly, so in the end the right ones get the money. but much less is lost in total.

Stealth's argument is so bad. The whole thought that these guys are degens and will stay just to get back at you is assuming these guys don't play table games. A casino does not only have poker rooms, and the vast majority of rich poker fish burn money playin Craps, Baccarach, Blackjack and whatever else they feel like doing. Why would they stay at a poker table where they are being insulted when they can go put there money somewhere else and enjoy themselves? Berating fish is just dumb, no matter your argument or reasoning.

In high stakes games the fish are highly succesful at stuff outside of poker, and they may be succesful in something that you are interested in doing. So if you are dick to them they will never help you out.

Also just because you are berating the fish to get him to tilt money to you, who's to say that all the good players at the table don't take offense to what you are doing and then all agree to work against you? This could definitely happen because of the fear that your behavior could kill their future action with the fish, and having you out the game ensures the fish keeps coming back to the poker room and not heading over to the craps tables.

of course it can but the difference is that in cash the fish has the choice on whether he wants to play in a game with brats. the people the get tilted by hellmuth are forced to play at his table and im sure wouldnt choose to otherwise.

i half actually suspect that i've run worse in the last 3 months than anyone ever has in the history of poker over a comparable number of hands

BUT HES A REAL NICE GUY IRLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

lol aejones made a cute post. whatever, all i can say is that i see a lot of online nerds that have a lot of money are just miserable people. i like what stinger wrote too. i just know after playing the game for so many years and seeing it change so much, you change as a person more. fish don't come around as easily and you learn that you have to be respectful. full tilt is filled with a bunch of nerdy kids who run their mouths after winning a big pot off a fish. i find this ridiculous. oh and phil hellmuth sucks at cash games and always has. his style is only profitable against fish but he's great for tv. I really think the reason why these online kids are so disrespectful nowadays is because the way they came up in the game was made so everything was just given to them. Sites like cardrunners, deuces cracked, two+two, all helped new comers learn the game extremely fast. They never had to experience the real pain involved in poker. THey came into the game confident they could win and saw results right off the bat. Instead of knowing that they got outplayed in a hand, they only played vs fish who just handed them their money. My point is, a lot of the new internet pros had things made so easy for them. Doyle Brunson had to struggle playing poker for most of his life just to play the game. Poker builds character but it doesn't if you've never really had to struggle from the game. Losing 2 buyins to a fish that you know you made the +EV play against isn't going to hurt you. See now a days, it's so easy to determine if you're playing well or not playing well. In the past, you would really have to work so hard to see if you were at the top of your game or not. Look at how doyle brunson used to play. Dude would just shove every draw and when he missed, he was broke. My point is, older more experienced poker players have something these new online kids will never have till they reach the big games. What is that you might ask? Character. Character is what makes the real fish want to play with you. Why? Because they respect character. $ isn't everything in life and I hope you kids realize that some day.

Sorry for the grunch but don't you see the similarities between the two in the point stealthmunk is trying to make?

aejones,

great post.

stealthmonk,

you are an epic ******. congrats.

et al,

just have to say i was pleasantly suprised at the adz bashing derailment!!!

i half actually suspect that i've run worse in the last 3 months than anyone ever has in the history of poker over a comparable number of hands

how is this relevant??? every pro and even amateurs that i have talked to about poker has said this. but wait! now you're gonna say "look at this EV graph dude, i played great but lost 399 consecutive flips!".
mhm. you're probably a really good player and i like the posts of your's that i have read, i'm just so sick of everyone complaining about how they run. i did it too, but real pros never complain. they instareload.

all helped new comers learn the game extremely fast. They never had to experience the real pain involved in poker

you must be 63 years old. i am 20 years old, and i have probably played more hands of poker than you, and therefore have a pretty clear idea about the "pain" of poker. i have played in the big games (online anyway). i can assure you that it was NOT a rapid process, in fact it was a glacial one. playing 10 hours a day playing 8+ tables for a couple years is not easy, but it is easily the most stressful and depressing thing i have ever done. i'm not advocating playing that much, because through that i have learned discipline, and balance, but that is what it took to get me where i am today.

i agree with you phil H sucks at cash games from what i have seen on HSP, though i've never really played him so i can't say quantifiably. i agree that there are many young punks near the top of the poker community, i am one. most of us are devoid of character and sound judgement you are correct, in your seniority you probably have a better grasp of that sort of thing than us young punks.

lastly i never had a coach, peer, or mentor of any kind. and i never watched a CR video until just recently, when i already understood the concepts that were being explained.

moral: we are not all completely inept and lacking in character, and online poker today is definitely not any easier or less "painful" than it was back in the days of chip and doyle.

Wow I am surprised people are using Phil as an example of berating players. Haven't any of you ever played with him?!?! He is a total puppy dog at the table, quite, polite and very professional, except when the cams are around, then just like flipping a light switch he becomes the "poker brat". He is down right friendly, the only really annoying thing about his play is the slowness, god he takes forever to act.

stealth ur wrong here... overall berating the bad players is a bad idea.. of course it is sometimes to ur advantage

Is it this Steve Harris as in Iron Maiden or the actor Steve Harris ?

i asked him if he had one of their bdays and he said no and no

and I thought Iron Maiden died out b4 most of you were born !

FWIW Played with a 21/22 yr old internet phenom (think his name is Jerome) at the B recently 10/20 and he was berating everyone but he did it in a nice way and was actually bloody funny, til he picked on moi for frickin up a few hands against him, BUT in doing so he got so much info from "us live NITS" that I am sure it will be a +EV move for him in the long run.

People who I have never seen show hands were suddenly aware that a kid was thinking on a diff level to the rest and were kind of trying to seek his favor...... bloody funny to see, sort of like a Jedi mind game....

whereas there is an old prick at the B (little European dude with moustache) who is a good player but is a nasty f..ker and he BERATES everyone and makes the nice fish disappear in a matter of a few rounds.....

so I think knowing how to do it if that is part of your M.O. is key..

Personally, I think trash talking is a waste of energy unless your oponent is the pathetic English cricket team !

qft

there's a reason stealthmunk took the virgin bet imo!

Good thread. Cool quote from FWF at start.

I played 25/50 live against a few guys like MoneyMaker and Masa Kagawa (Japanese business man who was playing 300-600 vs Ivey etc at Aussie Millions) during AAPT in Sydney (they were happy to play bigger but no one else had any money) and at one point MoneyMaker basically tried to tell me what he had during a hand because we had been friendly, joking around together, drinking together etc. and he liked me. I was too stupid to realise what he was talking to me about, but nontheless, I think it was definitely hugely +EV to be nice to these guys.

All of that experience made me especially realise that when these guys are purely recreational players, and the money is either not theirs, or not of any concern to them, theres no reason to not to try as be as polite, friendly and entertaining as possible.

This is also forgetting that for me anyway, it's much more enjoyable to be having a good time myself, and having a good time involves being friendly rather than being involved in **** talking, arguing, and generally being hostile.

I feel much better about myself, and walk away a lot happier from any social interaction when the people around me, and myself, are happy. Less stress, less discomfort, and more happiness, even if it had to sacrifice some tiny $EV edge, would be worth it in my book.

yeah exactly, forget all the +EV crap (even though it isnt +EV). How about just not acting like a twat?

pretty sure he was turning his hand into a bluff, no?

haha to bluff what

it was thin value repping the missed flush draw to get dean to call with worse than KQ. it was just um not the best board/situation for it. imo.

Viffer,

You make good points but you are a pathetic hypocrite for making them, in light of the way you act at the table. I used to play you all the time at O8 on Stars, and you would do nothing but whine, berate, and generally insult other players. The fact that you were a huge fish in that game made it tolerable, but I don't think you knew that and were just exercising sucker privileges; I think you thought it was fine for you to do.

By most accounts, you are an annoying fool in live games as well, so be quiet and let this point be made by someone who has enough integrity for the words to not ring hollow. I'll be in Vegas this summer, and if I see you with your ******ed jersey on, I'll be sure to introduce myself to you so you can reply.

bring money im not hard to find!!!!!

and yes i resemble your statements, <(((((((((((<> do as i say not as i do!!!!!!!