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Old 08-17-2006, 05:43 PM   #26
wpr101
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re: best HSNL threads

Hey fsu can you sticky this thread by the way once it gets a sufficient number of replies? I'm about to print out the posts.
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Old 08-17-2006, 05:53 PM   #28
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re: best HSNL threads

yes
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Old 08-17-2006, 06:08 PM   #29
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Eveything is relative, if you find people willing to put ~300bbs in with tp, tptk is a monster.
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Old 08-17-2006, 07:13 PM   #30
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re: best HSNL threads

Riverboatking Gets a Guy of KK Preflop

Garland teaches the minraise
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Old 08-17-2006, 07:18 PM   #31
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re: best HSNL threads

There was an excellent post by NateDogg in the archives on the Evils of Slowplaying, but I don't have a link

-g
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Old 08-18-2006, 03:03 PM   #32
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Awesome thread, should be stickied, imo
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Old 08-18-2006, 05:29 PM   #33
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re: best HSNL threads

fsu,

Heimdal links a few old posts of mine here

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=6956468&page =0&vc=1
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Old 08-18-2006, 08:52 PM   #34
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re: best HSNL threads

I don't have the link, but I have the text of the thread (slightly edited for readability).

Later,
Che

________________________________________

SLOWPLAYING IN BIG BET HOLDíEM


I think there are very, very few situations in NL/PL holdíem where the decision to slowplay is clearly more profitable than otherwise. In limit holdíem, I cannot think of a situation where you should ever slowplay.


My objection to slow playing is not entirely based on the fear of suckouts. In fact, fear of suckouts has little to do with it. Itís a matter of how to most profitably play your hands. And in NL holdíem, I think betting is always the way to go.


The biggest problem with slowplaying is that you give away your hand by doing so. Whenever somebody ďwakes upĒ in a later round itís pretty obvious they were slowplaying. Iím not talking about when a scare card comes like a third flush card and they move all-in. If somebody wakes up at that point, they are representing a flush, not slowplaying a set. So when somebody wakes up on an innocuous turn or river, you can be fairly sure theyíve slowplayed a monster. This usually means a set or a straight. If you are even THINKING of slowplaying two pair then you really need your head examined.


Itís simple really. Somebody is MUCH more likely to commit their stack on the flop with a hand like top pair than on the river. So if youíve got a monster, get top pair to play aggressively with you right there on the flop. Another problem is that by slowplaying you often pass up a chance to get ANY chips because somebody with a hand like top pair who would have played with you will have to slowdown once the board gets scarier. Now youíve lost profit because the board is too scary for anyone to do anything.


By not slowplaying, you also put more doubt into your opponents heads, especially if you have position. If three people check to me on the button and I bet out with the nuts, Iím MUCH more likely to get action than if I wait until the turn or river. The button should bet out with quads as far as Iím concerned. You are (hopefully) betting aggressively from the button regularly, so thereís no need to disguise a big hand when you have it.


The other problem with slowplaying is that your opponent either has NO chance of catching up or a SLIM chance of beating you. Letís say the flop comes KKQ and Iíve got 99. Even if a 9 comes on the river, Iím not putting in much money. MAYBE Iíll call a pot size bet if Iím in a bluff-catching mood. Iím certainly not going to call an all-in bet by the button who suddenly wakes up.


So even when you let them catch up slightly, you donít make much. But you lose your whole stack when they catch up enough to beat you.


By betting you also look like youíre protecting a vulnerable hand. Then, you might actually get action from somebody who improves because they wonít think you have such a big hand to begin with. Like with the 99 example. Letís say I have the button and the nut full house bets the size of the pot. Weíve both got huge stacks. I might call because I want to make a move on him if he checks or I might think heís bluffing. If a nine comes on the turn and he bets again, Iím MUCH more likely to commit or at least raise a good amount. Instead, letís say he checks to me and I bet the flop. He calls and check-raises me all-in on the turn. Even if I hit that nine, I will release more often than if he had started out as the aggressor. Iíll put him on a slowplay.


Many other players love to slowplay big hands. Thatís why I think itís best to keep betting with big monsters, because they expect you to slowplay like they would. You will get action from people with decent hands. On a flop like KKQ, you might get action from a queen if you bet from the button. You might get action from a straight draw. You might get bluffed by someone who just doesnít believe you have a king. And you MIGHT get action from some fool who slowplayed QQ preflop or from some poor bastard with AK or KJ or KT or K9 or K2 if the players are bad enough. Iíve made HUGE pots by betting on the button with a monster. Somebody comes over the top, and itís over.


If you want to induce a bluff by slowplaying out of position, itís just as valid to induce a bluff by betting. If I flop the nuts and Sam B (an aggressive Bay Area player) is sitting behind me, Iím going to bet the flop and bet the turn and check the river. He will move in on me roughly 90% of the time with nothing. I would say youíll get bluffed just as often when you check or bet, so you might as well bet when you have the nuts.


So, while slowplaying can be a profitable move, I think you make MORE money by not slowplaying. The concept of sucking people in for more money when you hold a monster doesnít hold water in my opinion. You want to instigate action, you want to induce people to make a play at you, you want to get the other guy who was slowplaying the second nuts to finally wake up. If all the money doesnít go in until the river when you flopped the nuts, you are not in good shape. Why is all that money going in now? With a board of KKQTA, if I have KQ but all the money goes in on the river when that ace shows up, Iíve got to be worried. Itís obvious to everyone that I slowplayed a big full house or that I MADE a big full house. So if somebody is there with me, he must have me beat.


The extra few chips I might make by waiting for someone to take a stab at the pot will not make up for the times when I can double my whole stack by instigating action, and it certainly wonít make up for those times when I LOSE my whole stack by giving someone a cheap river.

One last note. When playing pot limit, itís even more important not to slowplay because you lose opportunity to get a lot of chips into the pot. Keep betting and building a pot.

So there you go, thatís why I think slowplaying is almost always the wrong move. I KNOW Iím going to get hammered for this one.
________________________________________


Tommy Angelo:
Quote:
________________________________________

Good post, Nate. I agree with every concept, but not entirely with your conclusions.

First, the word ďslow playĒ is not clearly defined. Example, if I flop top pair and two players check to me and I bet $20 into an $80 pot, is that a slowplay?

No need to answer that. You can see there are infinite degrees of slowness. And oftentimes there is no clear line between ďslow playĒ and ďcautious play.Ē

Second, I question your absolutism because each one-on-one matchup at a full no-limit game is like a seperate game unto itself, with itís own history, long range and short, and being flexible has value on its own.

Yeah, Iím stretching to find any sort of rebuttal. Good post.
________________________________________


Goodie:
Quote:
________________________________________

Let me give you an example of a hand that I slowplayed in the 340 WPF no limit event on Sunday. There were two callers and I was in the big blind with 22. The flop came something like 8 5 2 offsuit. I canít imagine that betting this flop is the right thing to do. Checking this flop and having it get checked around is not at all a bad thing. There are many cards that can come off on the turn that might make one of the callers a second best hand. As it turned out, and Ace came off the deck on the turn and I bet out. Neither of them had an ace, but they very well could have and paid me off whereas they would have definetly folded to a bet on the flop.

As a rule, slowplaying is not correct, but there are many situations in which it is very much the right thing to do.
________________________________________


Natedog:
Quote:
________________________________________

I have almost no tournament experience. Tournaments and live ring game play are very very different. I will point out that checking is not necessarily slowplaying. Check-calling would be more of a slow-play.

One thing about slowplaying. It DOES become correct the less aggressive you are. If you donít often try to pick up pots or raise with position preflop, then slowplaying is probably the way to go when you hit the flop hard. This should be obvious.

But I believe you should normally be playing fairly aggressively, pushing hard when people show weakness and picking up uncontested pots whenever the opportunity presents itself. If this is the case, slowplaying is silly. Bet when you have a hand, because youíre betting so often without one.

In the case of your 22 hand, you may be looking at this wrong. You didnít get any action did you? I donít see why you think slowplaying was correct.

That ace on the turn may have killed any action you might have got from your opponents. Even with mere overcards, you might have got a call or even a bluff-raise on the flop. If your opponents held 67 or 34, any 8, any overpair like TT, even A5 or overcards, you might have got some action on that flop. By checking and waiting for the scare card to come on the turn, you MIGHT have killed your own action. Just a thought. Those times when you are facing 85, A8, or a big overpair, youíre going to get the action anyway, so donít slow down. The only thing that can hurt you is if a scare card comes and puts the frighteners on someone who may have played hard with you on the flop.

In other words, I think slowplaying your 22 was a mistake, unless you are generally very timid on the flop. Even then, you should probably bet out and hope somebody caught a piece.

However, I have almost no tourney experience, so this situation may call for a slowplay. Stack sizes, antes, blinds and tourney stage were not mentioned.
________________________________________
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Old 08-19-2006, 01:23 AM   #35
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re: best HSNL threads

fsu, i think u should make a sticky and put a bunch of links to the threads you think are best in there. Just an idea but i think itd be neat.
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:05 AM   #36
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re: best HSNL threads

WTF how is this a good post?

also, bump for more good threads
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:38 AM   #37
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re: best HSNL threads

Someone link more Ray Zee posts because a lot of these threads I've been reading really suck bad.
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:00 AM   #38
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re: best HSNL threads

Here Dan Bright revolutionizes msnl with a ground breaking theory post:

ak is the nuts
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:20 AM   #39
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re: best HSNL threads

Someone link to Natedogg's old post about stack sizes. That was good. It was around the time of the slowplaying post.
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:33 AM   #40
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re: best HSNL threads

Quote:
WTF how is this a good post?

also, bump for more good threads
not really strategi posts, but fun/entertaining:
cero's rush

Huskiez with Negreanu

kagame and el diablo
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Old 02-01-2007, 03:01 AM   #41
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re: best HSNL threads

bUmP


anyone got any good threads to add?
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:35 AM   #42
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re: best HSNL threads

Gigabet responds to ?'s about the HH of one of his Step 5's wins.

At the time, this one taught me to think on a whole another level I was thinking on previously. One of the most +EV posts I have personally ever seen on 2p2.

Kirk
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:28 PM   #43
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re: best HSNL threads

I play NL, but someone shared this limit thread about firing a second barrel that I thought was insightful:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=

And I also recommend Dan Bright's thread about playing AK.

Here's another favorite thread thread (SSNL): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=
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Old 02-02-2007, 04:05 AM   #44
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re: best HSNL threads

rbk u are a genius man!!!!
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Old 02-02-2007, 11:24 AM   #45
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re: best HSNL threads

here are a couple of my threads that got good responses when they were posted:

which bluff(s) worked?

some thin calls
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Old 02-20-2007, 04:06 PM   #46
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re: best HSNL threads

Samo or Strassa made a great post, which I cant find. NL2k og NL5k Fullring, +500 bbs deeb, where the OP go through a very interesting thought-process and ends up considdering shoving river against a very likely buttom set.
The hand was played against another 2+2īer.
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Old 02-20-2007, 04:08 PM   #47
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re: best HSNL threads

the hand were strassa limped KK 400 bbs deep at 25/50 and the board runs out trips and he ends up folding to a river shove. cant find the link, but an A+ thread
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Old 02-20-2007, 04:34 PM   #48
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re: best HSNL threads

the one where samo is liek 1000bb deep and calls a river shove with 4 high on AA2AA was sick

also i think durr's bad beat should be stickied for all impressionable young eyes to see
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Old 02-20-2007, 05:28 PM   #49
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re: best HSNL threads

Weird, I just opened that thread and somehow I got into my PM box from years ago and I had an unread PM from Pokerbabe about playing tight at 20/40 or something. What a blast from the past.
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Old 02-20-2007, 05:33 PM   #50
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re: best HSNL threads

krantz, link to samo thread?
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