dingdingdonk is still sitting at 25/50 .. so this is also dooshcom?

I don't have any interests in this case, but i'd really like to state that the line of argument "why u defend against the arguments of the attackers? Send HHs immidiately to them so they can prove you innocent" is fairly idiotic. They make a case against him, he can defend against that. That's how it works.

I also do not have any interest in this case. He should not send hand histories to anyone. The room will sort it out. Accusing someone of cheating can not become a cheap way to obtain valuable info. The mods should also change the title of this thread for now.

Do you really believe all those players got together and spent time finding these hands showing collusion and evidence of multi-accounting with the intention of falsely accusing him of cheating on the chance that he would then send him his hand histories so that they might obtain valuable info?"

Don't be a "useful idiot."

'All these players getting together' seems a huge overstatement. As far as i can tell it is mainly OP and his roommates/inner circle. Yes he probably multi accounted but i have seen posts from respected players in this thread doubting the legitimacy of the collusion claim.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...dotcom-122073/

I think these players are the majority who played high stakes on 888 against dooshcom and benkaremail. I'm a reg there and played against them too and I had the same feeling, so I wrote to 888 but they said to me I have to collect some evidence. When I saw the news on Pokerstrategy, I was really surprised and perplex.
But I think the best is to investigate by a third party.

I say Dooshcom should sue OP for blackening his name.
These are serious accusations that hurts your rep badly, one shouldn't just throw it like this.

Dooshcom, feurell, would you agree to a bet whereby 888 send Dooshcom's entire database to NoahSD and he rules whether collusion/softplaying is proven beyond reasonable doubt? Something like 50k each, with 5k going to Noah (or whatever you decide upon). Seems like you should both embrace such an offer.

This, plus the fact he multiaccounted to deliberately mislead someone while USING a HEM, despite saying he doesnt use HEM just shows he's pretty shady to begin with.

Also, some of his arguments concerning the hands are misleading or wrong. Yes, he shoved AK when his partner had it as well. That's probably because if he doesnt, then thats guaranteed evidence he was cheating if this ever came to light. The 99 hand is also irrelevant if I'm reading it correctly. Why wouldnt you shove 99, even if your partner had a 9? 99 crushes your opponents range, so not having a single extra out to hit a set seems to be pointless.

That being said, this is a terribly serious accusation and the evidence leveled against him so far seems to be shaky at best. I see no reason that this player can't send his HH to someone like Noah though, or others on this site who do not play in those games and have no bias. They are probably more suited to do an independent investigation than the website itself.

That seems like a bad idea because there seems to be a likely chance the result of the findings could be that there was not enough evidence to prove either way whether cheating was involved. I guess feurell could take that chance though, if he still wanted.

Obv i would be happy to make a deal like this.

Im 100% in.

if such a bet is made feruell should lay at least 4-1 5-1 imo since the damage been done already even if doosh is completely innocent, and stands to lose a lot if proven guilty whereas if feruell is wrong all he risks is 50K and "oops, my bad lolz" apology

So what is this, the 4th PokerStrategy coach caught frauding people? Is that site run by scammers?

Being caught and being accused is not the same thing.

yea but if doosh didnt cheat then its a free 50k, noah will do it right imo.
i wouldnt beg for 3-1 or 2-1, but be super happy with 1-1 and a free 50k.

edit:"ohh but its not free his image was tarnished".. meh it will all be forgotten and i dont think a guy named doosh cares what people think.

This is the best solution possible to settle a dispute related to gambling: put a bet on it.

As evidenced by the lies he has already caught himself in (don't use HEM, don't multi-account disproved within 5 minutes) with his response, I bet that Doosh does not take up an offer where facts (rather than his disjointed ramblings) will determine the results on a "balance of probabilities."

It would be a best solution for an innocent player accused in cheating.

For a scammer this proposition is absolutely unacceptable.

well here's the thing - doosh's funds allegedly frozen while investigation is underway so an opportunity cost alone might be more than 50K

basically it might be a freeroll for feruell just to keep him out of the game for a few weeks, imo his loss in the bet has to be comparable to what doosh stands to lose if he's indeed confirmed cheater

otherwise a hs player would have to submit his whole db for review every time someone goes "50K says you're cheating" seems pretty ridiculous to me

I don't think it's right that whenever someone faces accusation they must submit their database to third party for investigation.

However I also think the 2p2 community is smart enough that if someone is just making BS accusations in the hope of freezing someone out of the game or tarnish their reputation, that we can see through it and therefore will be demanding more concrete proof from the accuser before defendant is required to prove himself innocent.

In this case OP hasn't made an incredibly strong case, but his case is strong enough and with backing from other players that the defendant has to prove himself innocent, and IMO his highly emotional and rambling longggggggg reply doesn't cut it. He could've simply used half a page(instead of 15) to deny any collusion and multi-accounting and have his friends come in to say that they were the ones who played under those other accounts and never colluded with him. Also it's interesting that HS players accused of cheating never just get legal representatives straight away to post on their behalf, or go to the police and make a sworn statement to say that they did not cheat. In the business world and general society this is done all the time. That's what I would do(make a sworn statement that is legally binding) if someone accused me of cheating them out of hundreds of thousands of dollars when I didn't do it. But I guess if you ARE a cheater then you wouldn't put yourself in further legal limbo by lying in a sworn statement.

Maybe I'm missing something, but in a game where all the action is taking place pre-flop almost any play can be rationalized and the rare one's that can't you can just claim miss-click, how would collusion ever be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Also, wouldn't Noah need the HH's from both accounts accused of colluding? Even then, unless they were suicidally stupid and folded AK to AK type hands repeatedly I don't see how collusion could ever be absolutely proven.

OP hasn't proven his case beyond a reasonable doubt but I'd like to ask the jury of his peers having read this thread how many would be willing to sit vs these two accounts? If you say you would, is it because you have a +EV strategy vs colluders or because you truly buy what doosh is selling?

The standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt --- it is a balance of probabilities as viewed by a knowledgeable or expert level grouping of his peers. Any high stakes pros can look at those hands and see irregularities and draw a negative inference from how the conspirators follow each other and sit in a prescribed manner. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and looks like a duck-- its a duck. Stop rationalizing. His reply was pathetic and only made him look more like a duck (and he even lied in it saying he never used HEM and does not multi-account as was demonstrated to my satisfaction about five minutes after he posted his rambling jibberish). I hope 888 sues him for every dollar they paid him.

Do you remember when Jose Canseco listed all the players in baseball he knew for certain were cheating by using steroids. All of them squawked and attacked Jose and said he was out of line or crazy, but not a single one of them sued him. Guess why? Because if they did they would be cross examined and subject to criminal perjury charges.

If Dooshbag won't submit his hand history to a third party along the lines of the bet mentioned earlier he certainly wouldn't swear to anything under oath or have his actions looked at very closely.
p.s.-- Compare Doosh's rambling post in reply with the one submitted by Haseeb in the Girah scandal. See any similarities like a mass of words not really addressing the salient points and personal attacks on his accusers along with obvious lies and logical inconsistencies. I do.

I will also present to you guys this thread since this is a thread about him being a cheater/scammer:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...p-seat-769592/

I am still convinced to this day I was cheated against in this, even with the Stars findings. Take it for what you will.

I'm not the one suggesting the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard, that was the standard proposed for the bet. A knowledgeable expert level group of his peers have already examined the situation and given us their findings in the OP. His response seemed like a bunch of trees to keep everyone from seeing the forest.
Some people are now attacking the OP or suggesting he made this public as an angle shoot. I feel even if these allegations are never 'proven', posting what they knew was a public service for everyone to decide for themselves whether or not to sit vs these two.