if he'd withdrawn the $5,000 and spent it on a hooker, would you expect her to pay it back as well?

Leave Tiffany out of this please.

this has happened on stars plenty of times and is handled the exact same way there. you are responsible for your account security / not making trades with scammers. it sucks and i wish it wasn't a problem, but the blame here isn't on lefort's side.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=21028

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=20952

I take my accounts security very seriously, maybe people in the threads shouldn't reference guys so easily... I researched user Dec1 before making the trade for those saying I didn't due my due diligence, that's wrong I did.

2 Plus 2 user praios and AuroythmiX recommended him in the HS thread 2 weeks before I went to trade with him. I trusted those names as reference, to me they were good traders so why would they list somebody as reference if they weren't absolutely sure he was legit?

There's already a pretty slim chance you ever get restitution for any of the $ you lost, but every time you blame another person other than yourself or the scammer, that chance gets closer to nil.

You owe Lefort an apology. Again.

If he didn't bust in 15 hands he would have likely played longer. If you busted his roll in 3 hands, that would be that.

I don't think this discussion leads anywhere, but you can't calc it the way you did.

Does not apply because of variance / free-rolling, that's the important point.

or if he doubled up he may have hit-n-ran after 3 hands.....

This is incorrect. If the scammer had stolen nba_guru's television and sold it to Lefort, nba-guru could get the television back under the law (in the US at least, but also in most other places) and Lefort would be stuck having to chase the scammer to get whatever he paid for the television. That's called a replevin action. (Incidentally, whether he bought it out of the back of a van or in circumstances that appeared totally legit is irrelevant, the original owner can recover his stolen property in a replevin action from a totally innocent purchaser and the purchaser is stuck having to chase the thief to get his money back. It sucks for both, but the law gives the property back to the original owner.)

However, cash is an exception and is excluded from the replevin rules, so if someone steals cash and spends it at the store (or loses it at PLO), the original victim can't get the cash back. The reasons for the exception for cash are pretty apparent from all of the examples given above of other circumstances where you don't have to return cash to the victim of a thief.

That's your free law lesson for the day.

Nbaguru u r making fool of urself

Totally agree with lefort and how poker sites handle this.

nba_guru,

You're way out of line here.

i would delete this thread if i were you buddy.. calling lefort out every chance you get on this forum is out of line
you got scammed plain and simple whether you did your due diligence or not it doesn't matter since that 2+2 account was hacked.. don't try to pass the scam onto someone else

HS Reg gets accused of not doing the right thing and looks for opinions of other HS regulars to weigh in.

Heaven forbid I ever mangle a gf/wife of mine, I will seek the opinions of OJ, Pitrious/Ray Rice etc. to get my back.

Don't think it's disputed that Lefort has/had any obligation whatsoever to pay.

I wonder if an old bag stepped on the bus and you were sitting down, would you stand up for her? Being under no obligation to, I can't fathom why you would?

But yeah, let's not even entertain the thought of doing the right thing here, in this isolated incident, from someone who clearly got scammed, for fear of getting free-rolled in the future.

Oh wait, it was entertained. HS regs with similar/exact same interests agreed. Ur good.

You obviously haven't understood anything that's been said in this thread.

Lefort only shares blame if he had some reasonable way to know that the property he took possession of was stolen.

He had no way of knowing that; therefore he is not to be blamed.

However, the property was still stolen property and still should be returned to the rightful owner if possible. That totally sucks (as it always does for anybody who unknowingly gains possession of stolen property) -- but it is morally and legally the right thing to do.

no

Stop posting in this thread if you don't understand how poker works. There is a large element of variance in poker, which you fail to even take into consideration.

And can everybody stop making dumb comparisons with stolen cars and such. There is a big difference between property and money.

Yes, he could have lost (he didn't though). Yes, this is an absolute free-roll against Lefort (and that totally sucks).

But its an isolated incident. Look outside the box for once. You found out the money you won was from somebody that got scammed. Give the kid a % of his stolen money back. Or because Lefort has no obligation to, it is just way too difficult for you robots to get past.

Although I believe all the logic & reasoning being thrown around here (most of it applies; some is just noise), is all just an excuse and the real reason he's not paying back is good ole fashion greed.

We play poker to win other people's money. Is that greed, I don't know. Lefort played against someone that was trying to win his money. If someone does that to me and loses, I'm never giving the money back.

The scammer did not steal nba_guru's money, in a sense. It was transferred it to him voluntarily. The scammer "borrowed" it and didn't repay with 3500 BOA. Then he went to a high stakes table and lost it fast, because it only amounted to 2.5 buy ins. Maybe the guy was hoping to double up quick and repay OP, who knows.

And it's not an isolated incident. Lefort stated that this kind of thing happens all the time. It's just that most of the people who claim their funds were stolen are lying, and OP probably isn't. And you know, for all the accusations OP made against Lefort, he could easily have turned it around and said that he was lying too, but he hasn't. We don't know if any claims by the OP of the my confession thread are true either.

Again, Lefort has no obligation to pay nba_guru. Him choosing not to does not make him a scumbag.

The two things I get a kick out of though:

1. Taking it to the HS community for validation

2. Patting himself on the back for even considering it

My complete guesstimate is that 5 out of 100 ppl (maybe a little more?) would give this guy a portion of his stolen money back. Lefort ain't one of them. Ain't no shame in that.

Who exactly do you think started this thread and took this issue to the HS community for validation? (Hint: it's not very hard to figure out)

What happened with this? Did you really get $2000 of your money back????

so where do you recommend he go for validation?? NVG?

@ Lefort.

You really expect people to believe for the simple reason that they were "standard all ins" that it couldn't be a chip dump? I have caught many people dumping chips non conspicuously to not get caught. Obviously if you are smart about it, and you know many people are getting caught, anyone with half a brain isn't going to raise 90% and fold. Conclusion, you cannot trust anyone online. Just because you are a regular means nothing. It all comes down to who likes money. I know plenty of people who have been caught dumping chips. Not saying you are not being honest because you may be, just saying people are very easily fooled.

In the other thread, he continuously referenced the HS community agreeing with him. And I just find that funny.

Kind of like Mayweather coming out in support of Ray Rice.