50/100 hand against mahatma at UB - Page 8 - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

this is a great hand, i've seen him push huge on the river on complete bluffs, he bets the turn when the 5 hits? real odd unless he doesnt want to give another free card. I've seen him overpush with the nuts also in this spot which makes him so hard to read. I think A TURN RAISE IS MANDATORY!!!

i agree it is a great hand, but I disagree with most peoples opinion that hero should have raised turn against P. Knowing P's inclinations, cold calling could look like jj or qq like some people have stipulated and inspired P to push a big bet on the river into your call. Raising the turn itself is results based, and I don't see a problem with giving P some rope on the turn, shame he hit. I rarely ever post, but this is a great thread

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10-16-2007 , 08:20 PM

#177

wrkingtobegreat

adept

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,060

great thread wow

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12-04-2007 , 01:45 AM

#178

Paul McSwizzle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,531

argh this is a nightmare where is the rest of the thread? all i see is the original op followed by 12/2007 responses...

this new software is ****ing tilting me so ****ing bad

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12-04-2007 , 02:29 AM

#179

imabigdeal

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,418

ya it's ****ed

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07-08-2008 , 08:24 PM

#180

IWalkOnWater

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 645

Awesome read, can any of you high stacks players explain how you would play the hand in 2008?
Would you call in that spot more frequend since the games have gotten more aggro or would you prefer a fold?
Thanks

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07-08-2008 , 08:39 PM

#181

willw9

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,576

I'd have to reread the thread which I will do, but at a quick glance, I would say this is a much easier call in 2008 because of the popularity of range merging, balanced play, and valuebetting insanely thin.

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07-08-2008 , 08:43 PM

#182

trambopoline

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,996

Oh my how the games have changed...

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07-08-2008 , 08:53 PM

#183

poker12

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,155

lol @ bump

trambo what u do here

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07-08-2008 , 09:36 PM

#184

trambopoline

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,996

Call 99% of the time, the 1% being the times im blackout drunk and pass out before I can find the call button

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07-08-2008 , 09:45 PM

#185

cowpig

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,162

Quote:

Originally Posted by trambopoline

Call 99% of the time, the 1% being the times im blackout drunk and pass out before I can find the call button

wtf

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07-09-2008 , 12:46 AM

#186

selurah

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,575

Quote:

Originally Posted by trambopoline

Call 99% of the time, the 1% being the times im blackout drunk and pass out before I can find the call button

lol

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07-09-2008 , 01:15 AM

#187

raptor517

2013 November Nine

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 9,749

Quote:

Originally Posted by IWalkOnWater

i am just completely shocked how there hasnt been really any discussion on raising the turn. i would raise turn 100% 3 years ago as well as today, though 3 years ago i was grinding sngs.

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07-09-2008 , 03:03 AM

#188

Shizzle12345

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,574

these overbets are very interesting. didnt someone figure him out? or did he just get one of those horrible neverending downswings and tilted the rest off. if only we could retrieve this level to today's HSNL forum, so i can shut up and listen to the smart people here and learn a thing or two. wheres that ban recallme thread again?

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07-09-2008 , 03:22 AM

#189

ziggyzaooo

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,936

lol wow, a discussion like this would've never even started in 2008, insta call obv.

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07-09-2008 , 03:45 AM

#190

Bullitos

old hand

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,376

Why would you raise turn if this guy likes to keep betting vs. weakness?

There aren't many draws, basically only QJ, and I doubt he's calling a turnraise and a riverbet with a hand like KQ/KJ. Those same hands would probably fire or call most rivers, also most of his bluffs would fire river. So you basically lose no EV by just calling.

What is your plan vs. a turn 3bet?

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07-09-2008 , 06:44 AM

#191

VPIP100

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,644

What disturbs me most is that if mahatma was doing this (clearly) with a wide range but still people were advocating a fold here. This means, because our calling range on the turn should be fairly wide, that its extremely +EV to overbet shove there for villain. Because were calling with a very very small range on the river. (most people only call AA/QJ here, wtf). Ofcourse nowadays we balance way better and have probably lower 2 pair/sets in our turn cold call range aswell, but if we decide to fold those aswell against the river overbet on exactly that river its still an extremely +EV shove for him.

The games really did change.

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07-09-2008 , 12:19 PM

#192

Todd Terry

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 16,301

Never mind, just realized the thread was super old.

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07-09-2008 , 12:41 PM

#193

Paul McSwizzle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,531

no wonder he was the best player in the world

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07-09-2008 , 01:05 PM

#194

jfish

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,121

i still think this is a fold today and i like to call just as much as anybody. i liked rereading this thread.

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07-09-2008 , 01:51 PM

#195

BalugaWhale

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,228

i agree w/ jfish.

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07-09-2008 , 03:43 PM

#196

Stranger123

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 632

I'm pretty sure this thread will still be at the front page in late 2011. Classic!

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07-10-2008 , 01:03 AM

#197

whupthattrick

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 653

Wonder whatever happened to Keres? This OP looks to be his last post.

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07-10-2008 , 04:33 AM

#198

Wizard-50

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 5,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Jacob

let me clarify my question. it seems like a lot of you are saying something like: well you have to call here because top two pair is such a strong hand and if you just fold top two pair when P pushes you will get run over. so in other words you are using the hand strength here as a way to control how often we call when P pushes the river. i.e. call with AK or better, that way we call him x% of the time, if we call less than x% P will abuse us.

i know you don't think you are doing this but i'm pretty sure you are. because if we had KQ i don't think you would all say oh easy call P is bluffing. and yet most of you would agree that the vast majority of the time, P has either less than KQ or greater than AK.

it seems to me that this is sort of a game-theoretic approach. i.e. x% is optimal for calling P river push, and so i will call with AK or better to get to that x%. the problem of course is every scenario is different. THIS is the kind of thinking that makes P so successful, not the guys who are saying to fold. because when you think like this you are giving up already. you are not even trying to read him. you are just saying, my hand falls into the x% when i should call, i hope i win. he knows that you do this.

and that's why the x% is not going to work out for you. it's gonna seem like you're getting unlucky but you're not. it is by design that a good chunk of your x% calls will be against the nuts.

Just wanted to quote this for anyone who missed it. Best post of the thread I've read so far about 2/3 thru reading them.

Great thread!

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07-10-2008 , 04:51 AM

#199

zio_slim

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 179

post n.2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allinlife

forgive me, but is this even worth discussing?

this guy was a prophet

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07-10-2008 , 04:59 AM

#200

Wizard-50

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 5,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by punter11235

As this thread is bumped anyway I am going to comment on this.
Using your hand strength as a way to control how often we call as you put it is perfect way to do it and no better way exists. You can use any information your opponent is not aware of to randomize your plays against him.
In this example: you are aware of your hand range here and your opponent is aware of this too but he doesnt have any idea of what you actually have (in this range). Now using your cards is better than flipping coin for obvious reason : he may be doing sth stupid and you will catch more stupid things with stronger hands.
There is absolutely no way to abuse it. I think its pretty obvious after some thought but I am going to elaborate if needed.

Best wishes

This is how I interpreted alex's post.

If you've decided you are going to call P's river shove around 50% of the time, you're therefore calling with the top 50% of your hands, say AK or better.

Now here's where alex points out the exploitableness. P is always reading and putting you on a range. If can correctly eliminate a set or straight from your range, he can push every river because you're folding every non-AK hand(again assuming his hand range for you is correct). Conversely if a dynamic exists where you call down light on the river, he can comfortably value shove because your range is so large that the top 50% of your range is so big.

I believe that is how it is exploitable if you simply say "I've got AK and its the top of my range so reads be damned"

-Chase

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