making a small bet on the turn will get you to showdown cheaper AND charge him (he doesn't seem the type to fold any pair for a small bet on the turn). and by small we're talking 1/4 to 1/2 pot here. as played, read his soul and make the perfect play on the river.

If you say it that way, then it makes sense. Off course you will will make more $ than you will lose & regardless of what you do, in a vacuum, you will be profitable with your big pairs. So I guess ur right, I meant to say limping KK isn't "optimal".

- NYtoCALI

I just saw this thread. There are a number of responses based on OPs optimal line against a theoretical opponent. I thought that I would give a slightly different take based on my own experience.

I play exclusively live in the L.A. area - Commerce, Bike and (raked) home games. A lot of my play is 5-10NL. I can tell you with certainty that there are very few (2 or 3) players that I regularly encounter who would bluff $1,500 on the river in a 5-10 game. They just don't exist. A bet of that size indicates strength (although players may overvalue their hands). Even though the villain may have bluffed before, if I ran into this situation in one of the games I play, it would be an easy fold.

If he was a donk and there having fun, he was prob. drunk and crazy. I think i'd call that, else he wouldn't check the turn for SURE. He recognized some weakness at ur turn check and thought u tried to pot. I bet u had him there.

OvrNout TexaL

The flop - ? Call river before and after reading info on history

This line makes so much sense and because hes got paid from a massive bet on the river screaming "Don't call me" from the exact hand you're repping from L/RR PRF and checking to the A on the turn I think hes worked his magic on you.

Did he play massive pots previously? with other calling down the villians bluffs on the river? were the bluffs you saw for a very small portion of hi stack? At 500 BB deep I'm going to take a wild guess and say yes

Hes built up an image which has got him paid, sure hes called $325 from your L/RR with 8Jd which is loose to say the least but you shot yourself in the foot instantly IMO by L/RR PRF because he (and **** loads of other people who know the absolute basics) can now narrow you down to the big premium hands comfortably

I know youve heard it atleast 100 times in this thread but your hand is face up from your shenanigans PRF assuring him hes getting paid should he hit the flop big as hes already got himself this crazy aggressive bluffing image

Maybe if you played him several times then you can justify it if youve seen him bluff big on the river and get called in these type of spots... but then how often are people L/RR these days a couple of 100BBs deep??

Could be a call if you have a sick read and you have played with him enough to be sure that hes bluffing more often than not with a pot this size

I only player $0.5/$0.10 cash games and other wise bigger tourneys

But I think you need to be giving villian alot more respect and the way you described him would almost suggest that you were getting annoyed with villian raising and bluffing left right and centre? hence the risk with the L/RR move PRF that pratically had your cards face up but you took the risk and you paid for that and lastly to add I think check on the turn is not good, by checking turn you have set yourself up to be bluffed off your hand a decent amount of the time in this spot

Seems like a call to me. If he's a donk he can pot value bet a jack not thinking about what hands call him. Also he could be bluffing there are a lot of draws he might call with on that board that missed.

Also,
The turn is defiantly a bet in my opinion. The ace may be "scary" but how many aces are actually in his range?
Value range that beats you -slow played AA (very unlikely), AJ,J8,88,JJ(unlikely) A3s(unlikely),33.
Value range that you beat KJ, maybe worse jacks if he is really bad only thinking about his hand not his hand vs your range.

Bluffing range, T9, T7, 79, QT,Q9, and maybe some other total air hands that just floated you. There are about the same amount of hands in his value range vs him bluffing range but combinatoricly his value range is harder to have.

I think you posted this because you called, he showed some value hand and you were like "I should of known because of his river bet size" maybe you should of but based on the description you gave it might be a good call vs his entire range.

If he never bluffs using that sizing, is a great hand reader etc, that may change things but I can only calculate based on the description given Hope this helps!

P.S. I'm a bit tired so I apologize if I forgot to list a value/bluffing hand that fits in there.

I agree with this guy. If you knew your hand is good and are catching the bluff then well played. If you fold now then its terrible.

this

I know the '2+2' reasoning is 'the turn check made me appear weak' and so I used to call alot in this situation - KK, ace high board, we all know it well.

But guess what.. in my experience.. it aint a profitable call. Everytime I call with KK on A-high board to big bets, i regret it. It's not profitable. He hit something and is hoping you make a big call with your AK. He's not gonna get much value out of KK anyway, so this is his plan. AA at this point is a case hand and not likely.

Donking out like that big on the river usually indicates 'making up for missed value on an earlier street' As in, he didnt want u to check behind on the turn.

If he truly is a thinking player and knows you're weak, fine make the hero call. It's not profitable in the long run, trust me. Ax hands are just not rare enough to require bluffs. In live games, it's not a hand you 'represent' its a hand you have. Its the most commonly played card combo live.