lol

Thanks for the OP; good read. What are some of the most reliable observations you tend to make during the first orbit of live play?

limon, at the 10/20nl-20/40nl,25/50nl, whose better vegas pros or la pros on average

well the stuff that was SEMI-TRUE back when fox wrote Quit Work, Play Poker, Sleep til Noon is still SEMI-TRUE now. so i wont go over it all.you generally dont know much and that why i buy in short

If you live in l.a. go to commerce and take a look at the people 10-20nl game then go take a look at a 1-2nl game. there is definitely a difference, its a small difference, but no-one would mistake the 2. now sometimes you see a 10-20 that looks like a 1-2 and there is just no chance its a bad game. i will ask for a table change to any table where at least 3 people are wearing free clothing given out by the casino even if i know nothing else.

in vegas i would submit the bottom section at bellagio or wynn looks almost exactly like the top section. l.a. is different.

do you mean reg-wannabes or pros?

vegas regs lose money slower but in a much nicer way.
l.a. regs can lose money in a flurry but they might take you down with them.


among pros its not much different nowadays because the internet sorta homogenized everyone. the best players in the world still come out of l.a. because the player pool is so big and there are many more games.

l.a. still is a little more lag and vegas a little more tag. this could be just do to the rake.

if im running hot id rather play l.a. pros because they generally see too many flops,make too many hero calls and bluff/can be induced to bluff too much. if im running cold id rather be in vegas.

ty limon

Hey limon, have you ever picked up a tell in the middle of a hand where after the hand was over you thought "my god... I'm a mother****ing GENIUS..."?

Yes please...

Cool post!

Thanks

lol. no. picking up tells is hard work and it takes more than one hand to correlate them. i can assure you that for every hero call ive made based on a "cold tell" that was correct ive been horribly wrong on one as well.

another problem with tells is you just know what your opponent thinks of his hand. not what his hand is.

heres a hand from the other night:

bad player opens button and i call in BB w/Ah5h. this player doesnt fold pre flop, doesnt give up on flops, puts you on the bottom of your range so repopping pre oop isnt good. against this player it will be very easy for me to determine if my ace is good and for me to make alot of money when i flop well. he c-bets 100% unless he flops a monster then he will slowplay. he takes a free card on the turn when he misses. and makes hero calls ridiculous bluffs on river.

flop is KKJ. i check he bets i call. turn is a T and gives me a s/f draw. i check he checks.

my plan on the river if i whiff is to check raise or check call no matter what. i feel he will check behind small pairs and AT type stuff and bet complete whiffs. leading is bad becasue he will try to pick me off w/ all kinds of shyt. if i hit i will lead and he will hero call. river is a blank.

i check...now he massively overbets all in! so i pull out the book of tricks to get a tell. hes givng me every weak tell in the world so i call...he says "you win" YAY! he flips over 22...BOOOOO!

Ya but if you're still making these plays to this day then they still must be profitable

well ya they are. im jsut sayin nothing is 100%. the best tells dont happen in the middle of a hand they are the tells you know about someone before you even sit down.

just getting around to it now, and although i like limon, i too felt this post was very meh. didn't agree with some of it, but w/e.

Yeah, NL sucks in this regard. In limit, we can easily call with Jack high on the river as necessary, but rarely in no limit, as they accidentally value bet too often. These situations is where I've learned to miniraise the river (when I would call in limit), just to make sure that he didn't accidentally vbet his K high v my Q high, but when he bets AI, you just have to gambooollll

what didnt you agree with? maybe if you tell me things wont be so meh...

always enjoy your posts limon. This thread was no different.

ok, sounds good. obviously a lot of nuggets of wisdom here and i think you're the man, but here goes:

you and i have a different definition of "best," I suppose.

intellectually inferior/superior does not mean 1 person is > or < another "HU4rollz". i understand your point here, but... there are many reasons that one person may not have the things you have, and some of them carry-over as reasons you may have an edge or whatnot, but it doesn't necessarily mean so. and really it shouldn't take anything away from you or your accomplishments.

I don't want to enumerate what others have said, and if you're cool with this, that's great. But I don't think you/one/anyone should assume what is ethically OK with you is the same for them.


This is a great point. Attention to detail, basically.

I think you mention this below, something like an online player who is used to 100 bbs suddenly is a dog when deep, but I don't agree with this. If you are a winning player online it means you are able to handread, utilize that information, act on it properly, etc. All things that become even more important deep. Basically, I assume that if you're good at one format, and now switch to another where the only variable that has changed is a decision making tree becomes more complex, then you know what? people who make good decisions will continue to do so.

there are many reasons an online player MAY struggle, such as the live aspect, perhaps playing for more money then they are used to, fewer decisions so they get bored, whatever, but pure stack depth is rarely the reason. (It's also possible they simply are not a winning player online, anyway, so they shouldn't expect to be a winner live)


i understand this point. I, also, agree with it to an extent. but there is a major component you're not labeling... if you have position on those good players, then by all means i want to cover them. the reason is bc even though they wont be making poor decisions (or AS MANY poor decisions as the fish) i still will be put (by nature of the game) in a position to win more pots off them than they will off me. there are many ways to win money, and colddecking someone is just 1.

although i enjoyed this example from a literary perspective, in practice the analogy is flawed. religion is intangible, poker is tangible.

like, this. actually, there are people making that kind of money. most are not; but why is this so hard to accept?

Like, I took exception to this. Yeah, I understand what you mean, but I simply don't agree. Basically, you're saying the guys who are gambly and using suboptimal lines are the losing players and those who are straightforward and abc are the winning players. actually, if you go through the shows, there is a lot of non standard stuff being done, and some of it is flatout brilliant. (specifically by barry and durrr)

citing examples from HSP isn't exactly what i want to do here, and in general you have a good point (people focus on FPS too much) but i have always come across from a different perspective: just because something is accepted as standard doesn't mean it's the most optimal play. in MY eyes i do things that are standard FOR ME because I think it's the optimal play. to others, it looks whacky and nonstandard.

ok, this is fine advice. but guess what? ive come to where i am by having the same approach: I, too, solve something faster than the other dude. im sure many on this board have, too. your point is don't swim in murky waters if you can't adjust, but a lot of the people on the HSNL board have gotten to where they are because of their ability to adjust, not in spite of it.

haha, i loved this. very true.


Agree w/ the cliffnotes.

about the ATC philosophy, sure, what you say has an element of truth. but there are numerous examples and situations that play with one specific hand or set of hands is correct but not correct w/ a different group. ie. what could be correct w/ 45cc is not with J6o, hence why they are different..

1.) I like your style..do you wake up with grind on the mind?

2.) ever fold kings pre/yes/no/why

3.)whats the best strat to get rich playin poker/slowly slowly catchy monkey?

4.) what level is the most beatable/should u stay there rather than always try moving on up?

5.) bankroll requirements/stoploss yes or no/why

6.) how can a poker player make sure they never go broke

7.)is discipline and patient more important than reading people

8.)have u ever minkey tilted 100% sure u are beat called and still won with q high?

9.) who would u fear most if you had to play a million hands heads up...doyle/stu ungar/ chip reese/daniel neagreau/mike matusow/durrrr

10.) place these in order of who you would most like to play to least

you seem like a guy who would pull the warewolf moves..i like your style..ive been playing poker since i was about 5 and im in my 30s now..poker is the blood running through my brain cage

examples of brillant play by barry pls, I have only seen him play big pairs or AK, maybe three bet bluffing preflop or squeezing a few times.

j6 c/rai on turn vs eli comes to mind

I love bobbo, that was a good post. Just to add on my 2 cents.


Lets say that I can beat the majority of people at HU so if I go around challenging people like you HU4rollz (loose term) it is because I want to make money or (if I am a dog to you) challenge myself to get better. If you eventually prove yourself to be better then me or not worth playing I will eventually quit. I know its hard to understand that 2 good players would be playing against each other HU, OMG it must be all ego right? Yet you will notice that this accounts for the majority of HSNL online games. Someone does have an edge or they want to find out if they do, which is why the majority of games run. There are tons of ways to make money and if you are a dog at the table then either quit or try to learn something. I don't think someone challenging you HU4ROLLZ has ANYTHING to do with what you accomplished. If anything it seems like you have the bigger ego to make this statement then the person who challenged you hu4rollz.

Lots of variables that you don't account for if you think this is true for everybody. For example- your definition of a fish, how good are you relative to the other players at table, your position at table, how well you play deep, how well you can adapt, etc.

From the sounds of reading your post it seems like you play a pretty ABC game. There are still tons of way to exploit good players. If you are only buying in deep when there is a complete drooler in the line up then that's fine but you can at least understand that this isn't optimal for everybody.

Basically a lot of the stuff that you said works for you, yet its not the be all and end all. Since I have no idea who you are besides this and one other post where your attitude and reasoning behind your play was pretty meh. So I just don't understand what all the hype is about here.

part of it has to do witht he fact that online players dont realize how big a 10/20nl live game is . much lilke how holdem players dont realize how big plo is. the game is actually 10-20-100 because every pot is raised and the stax are deep. the proper bankroll for this game is huge.

so the dude buys in for 100bb and his only thought is how do i get 200 bb. then he gets 200bb and his only thought is how do i get 300 bb's and then he might get 300bb and then its like how do i keep my 300bb's and then hes toast because there are med strength players in the game who are still all abbout getting 600 bb's or going broke.

more later...im in cabo and dont have alot of time for posting.

LIMON,

why did you post that?

poker is boring, live poker is slow, all the big winners play basic ABC boring poker. for 15 or 10 years depending on how you want to look at it, putting 20 hours a week into it. That is a HUGE amount of time... So why are you a poker player? please note also that you have a big IQ so you have all the options in the world.

having a big iq doesnt get you much in life. they dont present you with a check after the test (unfortunately). in fact many of the skills necessary to score high on the exam are pretty worthless if your not willing to be a "slave to the man"...lol.

im pretty much a combative malcontent which, beleive it or not, doesnt get you far in the workplace. in fact if i ever have to cooperate with more than 2 people at a time it ends up being a giant disaster ( i make an exception for golf foursomes). add to that the fact that i really want to do as little as possible at all times to live a basic lifestyle which i find makes me happy and poker/gambling was the perfect vehicle to get me to the place i am today (not where many of you would want to be since i dont even own a watch).

sometimes. i always know before i go into the casino that getting at a good table and playing perfect is my only goal.

yes. but only against players who i know well. against a random i will pretty much never fold KK. if you had a personal rule that you would never fold KK you wouldnt lose that much (although i dont recommend it)

not sure what this means. you dont get rich playing poker. UNLESS your willing to just put your entire bankroll on the table at all times and play as big as possible. theres a catch 22 here though. people who are willing to do this have a special mindset which wont allow them to be satisfied.
for me its the 10/20ish live level. it used to be alot of 20/40nl but those games are horrible now.
im a big fan of a HUGE bankroll. id say you need a minimum of 100k to play the 10/20nl. most would say im crazy but most are happy living on a futon and eating taco bell w/ 3 of their buddies. THATS COOL! its just not for me. I want to feel free to drink a 2k bottle of wine AND make a 2k river call with ace high...not either or.

keep a day job? NOT JUST FOR THE MONEY! do /invest in other things besides poker. keep a big bankroll

yes. yes. yes. there are some old rocks that the ballers laugh at becuase they are so readable but these dudes just keep hanging around. if you can always play your A game (even if its really a B game) and NEVER tilt...you will make money at poker with no other skills.
no. if i ever tilted it would be a raise and not a call.

durrr for sure. none of these other guys ever really play HU. hu doesnt exist in a live setting. on line guys have to be the best at this and durr is the best online guy im told.

id like to play them all 100% least. theres a table of dudes somewhere right now who just want to watch the game, get away from their wives, blow off some steam, have people react to their stupidness etc...they are who i want to play.

some people really love poker. like maybe some people really love ditch digging. if you ask that ditch digger whether hed like to dig a 1 mile ditch or a 2 mile hell happily volunteer for a 2 mile...ill take the 1.