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Old 10-31-2011, 07:55 AM   #51
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Originally Posted by katie75013 View Post
Oh, I don't get this at all.
I mean does she really have to prove anything to anyone at this point?
Well she's been a looser online over a large sample of hands, and she does poker video training when she can't even beat cash games online, that said she did win a couple of live tourneys, was it luck or skill hard to know.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:48 PM   #52
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Well she's been a looser online over a large sample of hands, and she does poker video training when she can't even beat cash games online, that said she did win a couple of live tourneys, was it luck or skill hard to know.
Isildur1 is also a loser overall online.
You wanna go ahead and declare him bad as well since he obviously "can't even beat cash games online"?
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:08 PM   #53
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

The people complaining about Vanessa Selbst's behavior are probably the same people who complain about Phil Hellmuth's temper tantrums and about how they're SO BAD for poker and must be SO OFFPUTTING for a mainstream audience. What these people are neglecting to mention is that bad behavior makes for good television, and there's rarely such a thing as bad publicity for the poker world (black friday and the current FTP debacle aside). Hellmuth (or Selbst, or whoever) might be personally irritating to you at the table, but players like this are undeniably great for ratings. If it gives a wider audience exposure to poker, it's good for the game.

As far as women who I think would be fabulous ambassadors on behalf of female poker players, I would say that Annette Obrestad, Kara Scott, and Live Boeree would be at the top of my list.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:34 PM   #54
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The people complaining about Vanessa Selbst's behavior are probably the same people who complain about Phil Hellmuth's temper tantrums and about how they're SO BAD for poker and must be SO OFFPUTTING for a mainstream audience. What these people are neglecting to mention is that bad behavior makes for good television, and there's rarely such a thing as bad publicity for the poker world (black friday and the current FTP debacle aside). Hellmuth (or Selbst, or whoever) might be personally irritating to you at the table, but players like this are undeniably great for ratings. If it gives a wider audience exposure to poker, it's good for the game.

As far as women who I think would be fabulous ambassadors on behalf of female poker players, I would say that Annette Obrestad, Kara Scott, and Live Boeree would be at the top of my list.

Watch it there with Ms.Obrestad, she's not to fond of the womenz I hear.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:37 PM   #55
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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The people complaining about Vanessa Selbst's behavior are probably the same people who complain about Phil Hellmuth's temper tantrums and about how they're SO BAD for poker and must be SO OFFPUTTING for a mainstream audience. What these people are neglecting to mention is that bad behavior makes for good television, and there's rarely such a thing as bad publicity for the poker world (black friday and the current FTP debacle aside). Hellmuth (or Selbst, or whoever) might be personally irritating to you at the table, but players like this are undeniably great for ratings. If it gives a wider audience exposure to poker, it's good for the game.

As far as women who I think would be fabulous ambassadors on behalf of female poker players, I would say that Annette Obrestad, Kara Scott, and Live Boeree would be at the top of my list.
Although I dont agree with you that selbst is good for poker (as a representative) I will give you a +1 for Liv Boeree, honestly dont know how I forgot her.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:22 PM   #56
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Isildur1 is also a loser overall online.
You wanna go ahead and declare him bad as well since he obviously "can't even beat cash games online"?
Isildur is the best NLHE HU specialist in the world (with other leaks).
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:05 AM   #57
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Jennifer Tilly was good for the game in my opinion. She is not a full time player but she has had success and I'm sure she has drawn people to the game that would never have even watched or played it.
Yeah totally. And Tiffany Michelle also is so great for the game.


JK to both.

Most men think it's disgusting how she wears shirts where 99% of her overly obese boobs are hanging out over the table. Plus she isn't much of a pro except against females.
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:08 AM   #58
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Originally Posted by HiFi View Post
The people complaining about Vanessa Selbst's behavior are probably the same people who complain about Phil Hellmuth's temper tantrums and about how they're SO BAD for poker and must be SO OFFPUTTING for a mainstream audience. What these people are neglecting to mention is that bad behavior makes for good television, and there's rarely such a thing as bad publicity for the poker world (black friday and the current FTP debacle aside). Hellmuth (or Selbst, or whoever) might be personally irritating to you at the table, but players like this are undeniably great for ratings. If it gives a wider audience exposure to poker, it's good for the game.

As far as women who I think would be fabulous ambassadors on behalf of female poker players, I would say that Annette Obrestad, Kara Scott, and Live Boeree would be at the top of my list.

Phil Hellmuths antics are not good for the game. If you ever go to the bar with a group of guys, many will ignore the show when Hellmuth is bemoaning himself over another loss. Psychologically speaking, women are much more attracted to "drama" than men. And since 90+% of sports channels audiences are males, it's counter intuitive to expect that men will like the same thing as women.
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:14 AM   #59
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Isildur is the best NLHE HU specialist in the world (with other leaks).
I'm not sure it's safe to say that he's the absolute best in the world, but yea, I think we made our point.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:12 PM   #60
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

Touche!
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:47 PM   #61
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Phil Hellmuths antics are not good for the game. If you ever go to the bar with a group of guys, many will ignore the show when Hellmuth is bemoaning himself over another loss. Psychologically speaking, women are much more attracted to "drama" than men. And since 90+% of sports channels audiences are males, it's counter intuitive to expect that men will like the same thing as women.
It's funny you use that as an example since I can't freaking STAND Hellmuth, but my bf thinks he's awesome
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:46 PM   #62
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

Such an interesting thread, thanks for posting. I'm gonna go out on a limb here or maybe a tangent and say what I think people won't say about Vanessa Selbst. What freaks them out is:

a) she is a killer player. She's as good, if not better than many male top pros and the way she thinks about and plays poker is tough to play against. It's easier to ***** about her play than it is to beat her. Most people take the easy route, rather than improve their own game to have a better chance. Good luck with that, btw.

and

b) she doesn't look like most of the top (and certainly sponsored) top female pros. I would wager everything I owned on this - if she LOOKED more like Maria Ho or Liv Boeree or Kara Scott, she would own the industry. Period.

I don't know what kind of contracts or network she has within the industry behind the scenes, but as with anything (and certainly for women, in particular), looks matter. It ain't right, it ain't fair, in fact it's total bull**** (I mean, for real - socks and sandals? the comb over? the aw shucks lumber jack persona? - guys get away with murder when it comes to the "looks" double standard!), but it's the way of this world. For now, anyway.

Regardless of her table demeanor (plenty of male pros have gotten out of line and not suffered for it, and you know who they are), I personally do a little dance of joy inside anytime I hear she's running deep in a tourney or is taking another one down. Results rule, and she's got them. As long as she continues working on her game and winning, she has to rank as one of the best representatives in poker. Period.

With that said - there ain't no better representative than Kara Scott. She's got it all - looks, brains, and ability. Given the platform, she could be bigger than Negreanu and equally (if not more) popular with the general public. Also, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't call a colleague/peer a '****ing ****' in international press. And, if she did, I'm pretty sure they'd like it.

My two cents.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:19 AM   #63
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Such an interesting thread, thanks for posting. I'm gonna go out on a limb here or maybe a tangent and say what I think people won't say about Vanessa Selbst. What freaks them out is:

a) she is a killer player. She's as good, if not better than many male top pros and the way she thinks about and plays poker is tough to play against. It's easier to ***** about her play than it is to beat her. Most people take the easy route, rather than improve their own game to have a better chance. Good luck with that, btw.

and

b) she doesn't look like most of the top (and certainly sponsored) top female pros. I would wager everything I owned on this - if she LOOKED more like Maria Ho or Liv Boeree or Kara Scott, she would own the industry. Period.

I don't know what kind of contracts or network she has within the industry behind the scenes, but as with anything (and certainly for women, in particular), looks matter. It ain't right, it ain't fair, in fact it's total bull**** (I mean, for real - socks and sandals? the comb over? the aw shucks lumber jack persona? - guys get away with murder when it comes to the "looks" double standard!), but it's the way of this world. For now, anyway.

Regardless of her table demeanor (plenty of male pros have gotten out of line and not suffered for it, and you know who they are), I personally do a little dance of joy inside anytime I hear she's running deep in a tourney or is taking another one down. Results rule, and she's got them. As long as she continues working on her game and winning, she has to rank as one of the best representatives in poker. Period.

With that said - there ain't no better representative than Kara Scott. She's got it all - looks, brains, and ability. Given the platform, she could be bigger than Negreanu and equally (if not more) popular with the general public. Also, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't call a colleague/peer a '****ing ****' in international press. And, if she did, I'm pretty sure they'd like it.

My two cents.
Great post. +1 to pretty much everything you said.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:59 PM   #64
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

I think the only thing that is holding Kara Scott back from being the women's face of poker is the fact that she is now doing more commentating than playing. That is in no way meant to be a knock on her as I understand she has taken some great opportunities that anyone would be crazy to pass up. The only reason I say this is that I was visiting my mom a couple of weeks ago and a re-run of the main event was playing on tv and Kara was interviewing one of the players who busted near the final table and she pointed out how good looking Kara Scott was but the fact that Kara Scott was the interviewer and not the player is whats holding her back from being the women's representative that I think they need in poker. Someone that the casual player who might be interested in getting into poker might need to see as a player in order to draw those women in. For that casual woman viewer (and to Namdogger's point about looks) if they were to see a bombshell like Kara as a player they might be more interested in watching the whole episode without losing interest.
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:11 PM   #65
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

IMO, Jennifer Harman has just done so much for the game. Despite the FTP debacle, she has shown that women can play at the absolute highest levels (um, can you say $100,000/$200,000 limit?!). She has consistently killed the Big Game, she is a mixed game player who would have gotten a TON more TV time if NLHE was her game (and even though it isn't, she has shown that--being the top pro she is--she can hang in the biggest NLHE games in the world).

I think it TOTALLY SUCKS that the FTP scandal has dragged her name through the mud, but I really don't think it's fair to say that all of these pro's knew what was going on with that company until more facts come out. IMO, Harman likely had no idea that FTP couldn't pay its players. We'll see...

In the meantime, more than any other female pro, Harman has attracted players to the game, and she has proven herself to be a diplomatic, classy representative for poker. I like, too, that she grinded live poker from the 10-20 LHE games at the Mirage to get where she is today, and in interviews she always says she had to move up through every single limit to get to the Big Game (meaning she played 10-20, then 20-40, then 30-60, etc.). I mean, Doyle told her she could write any chapter she pleased in Super System 2 (she chose LHE because she felt that was her best game at the time), which shows how much respect the greatest living poker legend has for her overall game. Also, she's the first to say that she's a "feel" player, rather than a "math" player--I like this because (though I know the basic poker math) I am such a dumbass when it comes to math. I follow my reads, and watching Harman's career gives me hope that I will continue to move up in limits.

All respect for Jennifer Harman! (And, yes, I had money on Tilt!)

P.S.: If we're talking strictly NLH, Selbst and Maria Ho are killing that game right now!
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:26 PM   #66
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

To answer the question, if she were more active or more willing, Barbara Enright. Failing that, Linda Johnston.

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Originally Posted by Namdogger View Post
Such an interesting thread, thanks for posting. I'm gonna go out on a limb here or maybe a tangent and say what I think people won't say about Vanessa Selbst. What freaks them out is:

a) she is a killer player. She's as good, if not better than many male top pros and the way she thinks about and plays poker is tough to play against. It's easier to ***** about her play than it is to beat her. Most people take the easy route, rather than improve their own game to have a better chance. Good luck with that, btw.
I'm guessing you're generalizing on purpose, but I make absolutely no bones about it -- just as surely as she is a much better player than I could hope to be, she also has an odious, obnoxious personality that has no business in the game. It has nothing to do with what's easier or what's harder. Irrespective of my talent level in poker, players of both gender with Selbst's temperament need to clean their act up.

And yes, I say the exact same thing about Hellmuth or any other male player with similar 'issues'.

Quote:
b) she doesn't look like most of the top (and certainly sponsored) top female pros. I would wager everything I owned on this - if she LOOKED more like Maria Ho or Liv Boeree or Kara Scott, she would own the industry. Period.
You are absolutely correct, and I don't suspect anyone would take that wager.

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I don't know what kind of contracts or network she has within the industry behind the scenes, but as with anything (and certainly for women, in particular), looks matter. It ain't right, it ain't fair, in fact it's total bull**** (I mean, for real - socks and sandals? the comb over? the aw shucks lumber jack persona? - guys get away with murder when it comes to the "looks" double standard!), but it's the way of this world. For now, anyway.
The thing is, the "looks" double standard works both ways. The same double standards that work against talented female players without "the looks" work in favor of less talented female players who DO have it, and an equally talented, equally hot female will universally exceed an equally talented, equally handsome male player in terms of endorsements and industry domination -- which you alluded to in your post re: Kara Scott vs Negreanu.
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:12 AM   #67
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

i love vanessa selbst but get said when she gets riled on TV


slowrolling eastgate with QQ > JJ in the hu championship was lame as well
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:49 AM   #68
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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I personally dont think Selbst is that great of a representative for the poker world, thats not to say she isnt a great player because she is but if a guy had the same attitude that she has had in some of her televised showings people would be complaining about how he was a tool and how he was bad for poker. As far as who I think is the best female representative I would probably have to say Maria Ho for the reason being she gets decent results in todays game and when she is on tv she is very calm and collected which is what i think Selbst lacks. I could also make an argument for JH but with all the full tilt stuff its hard for me to put her in the conversation. As far as who the worst reps are I would have to say Annie Duke or Tiffany Michelle.
All else aside, this is ridiculous. There are numerous instances of male pros who act like absolute douchebags on national television yet have legions of fans, and there are people who always defend the antics by claiming that it's "good for TV".

I think it's also important to bear in mind that TV editing can make a normally level person look pretty bad if they catch those few bad moments and that's all they show.

I don't know Selbst personally at all and there are stories about her being pretty rude to other players, but I fail to see how that's all that different from at least a dozen male name pros.

I have a lot of respect for her game and no direct information to form an opinion about her personality.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:20 PM   #69
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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All else aside, this is ridiculous. There are numerous instances of male pros who act like absolute douchebags on national television yet have legions of fans, and there are people who always defend the antics by claiming that it's "good for TV".

I think it's also important to bear in mind that TV editing can make a normally level person look pretty bad if they catch those few bad moments and that's all they show.

I don't know Selbst personally at all and there are stories about her being pretty rude to other players, but I fail to see how that's all that different from at least a dozen male name pros.

I have a lot of respect for her game and no direct information to form an opinion about her personality.
Ridiculous? I think you forgot what the topic of this thread was. What female would be the best representative for women in poker, not who is good for tv. I have no problem with Selbst being on tv and would stand by the argument that she is good for tv. However on that same note Phil Hellmuth or any other douche with stupid antics might be good for tv but that does not mean they are a good representative for poker nor do i think that. Just because ESPN thinks, "wow people are going to watch this episode because this guy goes ape **** during a tournament" does not mean that player is a good representative, all it means is that its good for ratings.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:41 AM   #70
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

I don't know much about the American pros and hadn't heard about Selbts' bad attitude before, but I also
Quote:
do a little dance of joy inside anytime I hear she's running deep in a tourney or is taking another one down.
:P

Regarding online poker, I think Adrienne Rowsome (TalonChick) is a great ambassador for women! She is a good player, a very joyful person, relatable and very active on her Facebook page. The Grindettes are also very cool but I still don't much about them. I just liked their page. For me, these women are more relatable and inspiring

Liv Boeree is insane, Vicky Coren-Mitchell showed what she's capable of just a few weeks ago (beast!), Kara Scott is very cool and Ana Marquez a great player as well (she's Spanish and Bryn Kenney's girlfriend).

I also like Leo Margets as a Spanish representative. I'd say she is the most known poker player in Spain. I had the opportunity to play with her 2 years ago and she is really nice.
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Old 05-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #71
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

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Regarding online poker, I think Adrienne Rowsome (TalonChick) is a great ambassador for women! She is a good player, a very joyful person, relatable and very active on her Facebook page. The Grindettes are also very cool but I still don't much about them. I just liked their page. For me, these women are more relatable and inspiring
I totally agree about Adrienne, and thank you for your nice words about the Grindettes

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Old 05-14-2014, 06:17 PM   #72
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

I'm a fangirl
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Old 05-18-2014, 10:22 PM   #73
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

Thanks raimartin and Katie, it is really wonderful to be even mentioned in the same category as most of these ladies.

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Old 05-22-2014, 10:11 PM   #74
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

Jen Harmon is very good.
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:56 AM   #75
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Re: Which woman best represents the poker world and which one is the worst representitive?

This thread necromancy reminded me that I never did throw my vote in here, so I'll do it now and go a little off the beaten path, I guess, but Barbara Enright gets my vote. First women to win a WSOP bracelet in an open event, first woman to be inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame, first and only woman to make the final table at the main event, and editor of a woman's poker magazine.

More mainstream and currently active player? Annie Duke AINEC.
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