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Old 12-12-2013, 11:40 AM   #26
Inxu
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

There is no contradiction. The original question were "why females who want to play poker but are turned off by live poker being male dominated dont play online?" so my original comment was two part first I said the reason why I think someone who might like live poker might not like online poker (lack off face to face interaction) and then I stated how I dont understand why someone who would LIKE/WANT to play live would be turned off by it being dominated by males. I still doubt that men in live poker are such jerks that a woman would rather give up poker (which they like) than sit with them on a table so my logical conclusion was that its rather a irrational fear than the fact that men there are jerks. Again lets note how that topic is "why dont females play online" not "why some females prefere playing online".
Being "turned off" from doing something you like is not the same as preferring a alternative (at least not for me, in this case).
In other words buying a coupe instead of SUV because SUV seller was jerk is not the same as buying coupe instead of SUV because you like coupes. Buying a banana instead of apple because the store was out of apples is not the same as buying a banana instead of apple just because prefer bananas. The outcome is same (you now have a banana/coupe/whatever) but only one customer is happy (the one who preferred banana/coupe/whatever to start with) while another one is unhappy.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #27
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by katie75013 View Post
This is the problem. Just because you (limited live poker interaction/casino experience) have had good experiences thus far does not mean you can generalize everyone and every situation to fit your experience.

If you "can't think" of why someone would prefer a certain situation over another, at least be aware enough to realize that until you have been in the shoes of every single person who has had an experience different from yours, that you cannot make a generalization like this; assuming that just because you have not experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Labeling/generalizing someone as "scared" for their reasons in preferring online poker over live poker is silly and naive.
I really don't get the impression Inxu is trying to say her experiences are 100% representative of every single player who's ever played live or online in the world. As she said, generalizations are somewhat expected when offering up solutions for an unexplained phenomenon amongst a large group of people. I agree that intimidation is a reason there are fewer women involved in live AND online poker. That doesn't mean I think that's the case for every woman, obviously lots of us are flourishing in both environments. But, it's my opinion through experience, and talking with others, that it's definitely a factor. If that means I'm labeling, then so be it I guess?

I sometimes feel that we (as humans, not necessarily women, don't jump all over me), get so defensive about things we lose the intent of the message. We're all on the same team here. Let's work together to identify problems and solutions instead of working against one another?
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Old 12-13-2013, 03:21 AM   #28
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

I happen to have a very thick skin and I'm too stubborn to let a few *******s on a forum run me off. I was able to tough it out early on and I found a couple of forums that were much friendlier than others. Through those forums I made lots of poker friends and learned a lot from the other active members. Even on those friendlier forums when I would post hands and get some scathing replies I had to realize that even though they might have responded nicer I was still learning something. I've been called every name you can think of in forum posts and I just let it roll off.

I'm pretty active on this one in the US reg threads but that's about the only ones I participate in on this one, except here once in awhile, but I'm very active on Pocket Fives and I've had no issues there at all ever. I don't have a problem with strategy threads here I just prefer the smaller size of P5s.

All that said I'm actually leading to at a point, if women have been in live situations where they were turned off by the way men act and then try playing online and getting involved on poker forums and run into a lot of the rude behavior that occurs I can understand how they might be put off enough to just give up the game.

I also think a large majority of women just aren't into playing poker at all. Look how few women over 18 play video games vs. men and I imagine there are many more men in chess than women (Katie can answer that one). Women are just often not as attracted to a math based skill games as men are. So I think some of it is just the way women are wired. Women are also more risk adverse as a rule so this is also a contributing factor.

Poker is hard, even the best players in MTTs only cash about 13 to 15% of the time and only make final tables around 4 to 6% and only hit top 3 spots about 2%. It takes constant work and evaluation and so it takes a certain type person to be able to stick it out and hang in there until they're good enough to win consistently.

Cash games are super tough too and if you're already risk adverse cash games are even harder to get good at.

I think there are so many contributing factors it's hard to pinpoint the exact reasons. I tend to think "fear" is one of the least likely reasons.
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:30 PM   #29
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Isnt risk adverse the same as fear of losing?
As for females not being so much into thinking games - I totally agree that's what T stands for in IxTx. Internet is full of jerks and after reading few articles and comments on websites like "return of kings" I would say that poker forums are rather mild in jerk %s (off to adopt my cats now). However I didnt discover poker all on my own. I happened to get few invitations to home games where men were more than willing to teach me so if it wouldnt be for men I wouldnt be here in the first place (and I doubt Im the only one or even in minority in that).
I have also worked in customer service and from what I saw is that for every 1 male being jerk there were 3 females being just as bad if not worse.
Im also more scared of sitting down in a table full of females who are dressed to kill than sitting down in table full of beer sipping men. As females are more likely to judge every detail about you.
As for my female friends - have never seen them being turned off from activity just because of men, actually I would say that like me they tend to prefer company of men over females - they dont play poker but I can see it (for example while going to a house party). But that might be birds of feather thing.
Overall a man who's being a jerk is easier to deal with than a female who is being a ***** (and the more popular it becomes among females the more it will attract those females). I like the fact that female poker players right now tend to be the stronger, less judgemental and smarter than the average party-girl and I would prefer it to stay that way.
Think of those half-naked club-girls and then think of your average male in live poker. Would you really want to trade him for the former one?
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:43 AM   #30
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

@Inxu, not being a jerk or anything but your posts would be so much easier to read if you'd use paragraphs and proper sentence structure. It's really hard to read it the way your write.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:08 AM   #31
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by DiamondDixie View Post
@Inxu, not being a jerk or anything but your posts would be so much easier to read if you'd use paragraphs and proper sentence structure. It's really hard to read it the way your write.
I take this obviously earned criticism and try to improve myself in that area in the future.
Edit: I would also appreciate if people would be more incline in pointing out the specific grammar mistakes Im making (for example placing commas, as my classes in English only got to the point of "English doesnt use commas as often as Estonian does". I also missed a lot of my English classes ).

Last edited by Inxu; 12-14-2013 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:07 AM   #32
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Hey Inxu,

I've never been to Estonia (I want to go there really badly!!), but I suspect that in general casinos in Europe are tailored toward a higher class of clientele than those in the US. In my limited experience I've found that in UK and European casinos there is more attention to service (cleanliness, food/drink, attitude), more security, and a general air of respectability that is absent from most of the places I've played in the US. Casinos are a posh place for entertainment, people dress up for a night out, and it also kind of feels like there are more women there (even if it's just girlfriends tagging along). All those factors make for an atmosphere where gross people are less likely to hang out, people are more likely to act respectfully, and harassment is less likely to occur.

In the US, the casinos and cardrooms cater to the saddest and most degenerate sectors of society (gambling addicts, scammers/loan sharks/thieves, homeless people). As many here have noted, sitting down at a poker table is often like walking into a mens locker room. I could write a book about all the disgusting things I've experienced and observed while playing live poker. It's not really an issue of women being intimidated by men or by the "boys club" atmosphere (though I wouldn't fault anyone who was intimidated by that). It's just that poker rooms can be really gross and really annoying, and your average player is an older man who hates his life, smells bad, and either is trying to hit on you or resents the fact that you are there in the first place.

I play live poker as much as I can stomach but it's more taxing than playing online, both physically and mentally. I'm happy that there are women who haven't had any bad experiences, and live poker can be totally fun if you get a friendly table and no one is targeting you in a negative way. I also think that the higher stakes you play, the more normal and respectful people you'll be playing with. But once you start logging a few hundred hours at live games, especially low stakes, you'll start seeing more of this stuff.

As for why more women don't play online, I think a lot of women do gravitate toward careers that have a more social atmosphere. Right now it's a moot point here in the US, as the online poker scene has been too crippled to either attract new players or function as a viable career path. However, I have noticed that the Pokerstars Women initiative has been growing and seems to really be gaining popularity and traction in the last year. I hope I'll be seeing some of you at the ladies event at PCA!!
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:00 PM   #33
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

I guess I was wrong in judging American casinos to be the same based on what I have seen on TV.

Yes, our casinos have a dresscode, but our cutomer service seems to be great source for jokes.

The stereotypical gambling addict is the same, but after reading few websites about men trying to be some pseudo-alphas (and they seemed to be mostly Americans), I came to conclusion that some American men might not treat women with same level of respect as men in here do.

Actually one of comments stated that "Eastern-European women are better because men in that culture have beaten them to submission". I assume this was written by American man who has never been to Eastern-Europe. And in light of that comment, I think it's rather scary to think what females over there must go through.

And since Im good at going off topic.
I have asked guys few times why man who hits a female is bigger taboo than woman who hits a man.
One guy took off his shirt and asked me to try and punch him the hardest I can, which I ended up doing after a little prompting, I ended up hurting my hand while he didnt even get a bruise. Followed by "See, you end up doing more damage to yourself than to me".
Other guy (Russian) simply told me that "the damage a female will do is very small, while the damage I could do to a female could be fatale".
Not promoting violence here, but thought I should add those two examples to how we "are beaten to submission in Eastern-Europe".

So I must say that I might have been wrong in thinking that casinos and men around the world are rather similar. However I still strongly think that the fact that females arent that strongly drawn to mind-games is bigger factor than men.

Edit - I also hope that I just found rotten apples and that most men there arent adopting that scary mindset.

Last edited by Inxu; 12-14-2013 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:10 PM   #34
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

I would imagine that more women would play on-line than live, simply do to ease of access. Same with men, for that matter.
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:38 AM   #35
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inxu View Post
I take this obviously earned criticism and try to improve myself in that area in the future.
Edit: I would also appreciate if people would be more incline in pointing out the specific grammar mistakes Im making (for example placing commas, as my classes in English only got to the point of "English doesnt use commas as often as Estonian does". I also missed a lot of my English classes ).
Opps sorry didn't realize English wasn't your first language, my bad. Just try to separate your paragraphs like you did in your last post, that helps a lot.

And yes I imagine the casinos you're used to are much nicer than some of what we deal with in the US.
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:11 PM   #36
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

As a male with a ton of live experience, allow me to chime in here.

Katie, like all female professionals, or women who play regularly and take it serious, has no fear of men whatsoever. Fear is a component which is void from anyone that plays poker for a living, male or female. When she sits at a poker table, I am sure she feels like it is her canvas and she is the only artist at the table.

Now, I hate to break it to you, but at a poker table, men are rude, crass, obnoxious, and belligerent to women! Not every man, not every time, but if you are a female playing poker you can expecting some, of all the above when you play.. A women has good reason to feel at least some form of fear playing for the first time.

The live poker world is seedy and full of the type of characters you would expect to find in a casino 10-15 hours/day.. again, some are very good people, but on average, look for friends elsewhere...
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:37 PM   #37
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by KidKash View Post

Now, I hate to break it to you, but at a poker table, men are rude, crass, obnoxious, and belligerent to women! Not every man, not every time, but if you are a female playing poker you can expecting some, of all the above when you play.. A women has good reason to feel at least some form of fear playing for the first time.
.
I've spent 2 months playing all over Vegas every single day, and I've seen absolutely none of this. We like to check out the waitresses and the hotties that walk by, but I've never seen anything about the way the women at the tables are treated at the tables that indicates any of what you're saying is true, at all. I've seen plenty of women who play everyday, from attractive to unattractive, and they seem to encounter nothing but friendliness and respect.

Where are you playing?
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:16 PM   #38
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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I've spent 2 months playing all over Vegas every single day, and I've seen absolutely none of this. We like to check out the waitresses and the hotties that walk by, but I've never seen anything about the way the women at the tables are treated at the tables that indicates any of what you're saying is true, at all. I've seen plenty of women who play everyday, from attractive to unattractive, and they seem to encounter nothing but friendliness and respect.

Where are you playing?
What is your point posting this? Do you think that the fact that you personally have not witnessed anything like this in the past two months of playing every day in Las Vegas, that it somehow will contradict or negate the experiences of those in this forum or thread who have posted about experiencing it themselves?
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:01 PM   #39
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Seems to me that he is chiming in with his experiences in regards to the current topic being discussed.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:49 AM   #40
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
I've spent 2 months playing all over Vegas every single day, and I've seen absolutely none of this. We like to check out the waitresses and the hotties that walk by, but I've never seen anything about the way the women at the tables are treated at the tables that indicates any of what you're saying is true, at all. I've seen plenty of women who play everyday, from attractive to unattractive, and they seem to encounter nothing but friendliness and respect.

Where are you playing?
Yeah, I'm just a dude that likes to bash on dudes, cos you know..
I've been playing poker live since ~1999, in 7 states and dozens of rooms, I know a thing or two about the poker environment.. Hope that validates the expression of my experiences.

anyway, I'm glad your experiences have been well received.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:57 PM   #41
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by Inxu View Post
I came to conclusion that some American men might not treat women with same level of respect as men in here do.
I wouldn't think there is any truth to this, but I have a small sample size (plus: lol guys opinion on this).
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:41 AM   #42
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by KidKash View Post
...The live poker world is seedy and full of the type of characters you would expect to find in a casino 10-15 hours/day.. again, some are very good people, but on average, look for friends elsewhere...
True, but on the other hand, there's something refreshingly honest and direct about poker. When you sit down at the poker table, nobody is pretending they're not out to get your money, like most other circumstances involving the exchange of cash. It's an unapologetic competition, and the average person, male or female, is not going to thrive in such an environment.
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Old 10-12-2014, 03:43 AM   #43
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by katie75013 View Post
What is your point posting this? Do you think that the fact that you personally have not witnessed anything like this in the past two months of playing every day in Las Vegas, that it somehow will contradict or negate the experiences of those in this forum or thread who have posted about experiencing it themselves?
Umm...what is your point in posting this Katie??? Somebody posted an anecdotal experience that went against all his anecdotal experience and he responded.... with a perfectly legitimate question...you do understand the idea of internet forums don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidKash View Post
Yeah, I'm just a dude that likes to bash on dudes, cos you know..
Well...yeh...from your previous post you probably are...in any case your use of sarcasm is baffling considering the abundance of pitiful 'dudes who like to bash on dudes'.
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Old 10-13-2014, 01:23 PM   #44
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Is there any studies made how many % onlineplayers are females or smthing like that?

I'd really wish to see more females play Texas Holdem! (im a male)

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Old 10-19-2014, 11:31 AM   #45
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Out of our pokerstars homegame that has 23 people, 6 of those are female and on average we take it a lot more seriously than the male players..

Small sample size.. And I am the only female player that takes NLHE seriously in our group, so it might be less attractive of a game to women in general?

I have noticed from railing friends that a large percentage of players in stud based tournaments seem to be female.
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:23 AM   #46
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Women are just interested in different things. To 99.99% of women, staring at a computer screen playing a card game just doesn't interest them. They'd rather be out shopping, putting on makeup, going out drinking, watching TV or some other similar activity (and no this isn't sexist, it's just the truth).

Women are also statistically proven much lower risk takers than men, and poker is obviously a risky game full of variance where you're essentially gambling with your own money.
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:11 AM   #47
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by smokybacon View Post
... They'd rather be out shopping, putting on makeup, going out drinking, watching TV or some other similar activity (and no this isn't sexist, it's just the truth).
Well, that is actually quite sexist .

How about a different stereotype : women are less likely to waste time on mindless activities, but rather do something useful ?
Socializing, career, family, creating a positive space around them - aka having a life ?


Quote:
Women are also statistically proven much lower risk takers than men, and poker is obviously a risky game full of variance where you're essentially gambling with your own money.
Since when is gambling about risks ?
And do those statistics consider the difference between taking a risk and being foolish ?
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Old 11-11-2014, 03:32 AM   #48
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

May be simple because women like new and fresh stuff, like gossip or fashion or sharing with each other, just keep staring at boring computer screen for few hours may not seems attractive to them. I am not sexist, just try to find different between men and women.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:27 PM   #49
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

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Originally Posted by smokybacon View Post
Women are just interested in different things. To 99.99% of women, staring at a computer screen playing a card game just doesn't interest them. They'd rather be out shopping, putting on makeup, going out drinking, watching TV or some other similar activity (and no this isn't sexist, it's just the truth).

Women are also statistically proven much lower risk takers than men, and poker is obviously a risky game full of variance where you're essentially gambling with your own money.
Come on, many women love staring at something like Candy Crush all day long which is arguable a complete waste of time. I got my wife hooked on poker and we play online together quite a bit. However, she doesn't want to really learn any strategy or look at anything that has anything to do with math.

My wife and MIL also love gambling, mostly slots. Again, will not consider any odds at all, just the fact that "you might win!".
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:38 PM   #50
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Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

slots are pretty mindless though, my mom says she likes them due to the complete lack of thought needed to play.... jeezuss...
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