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Old 03-13-2012, 05:08 PM   #1
chairmanmyow
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Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Last couple live sessions this has happened:

I was starting my session, got my chips and walked up to the table. The guy next to me says, "Turn around so we can see your ass." Then a couple others join in, "Yeah, turn around."
I froze but the guy who had directed me to the table fortunately said, "Table change?" and I said yes and I never sat.
I have been playing live for years, never had that happen.

So floor apologized when I cashed out that night, I said thanks.

Last night after playing for several hours (same casino), I'm a in multi-way pot and I wind up with a straight flush. Not a huge pot, but I make some money off two other flushes.

One of the guys involved says, "If the seven of diamonds comes, I totally rape you."

I could have let it go. Probably should have, but instead I said calmly, "Isn't there a better way to express that sentiment?"

He was pretty annoyed, ended up really going off on me. "Obviously stupid and uptight," were some of the things said. I argued a little and then just realized this guy was really angry and not someone I want to talk to, ever.

I'm not trying to be a victim and obviously I'm not trying to win a gender war at the poker table. But at the same time the "pussy", "fold like a little girl", and "rape you," wears on me. A poker room is not a strip club or a locker room. And as someone who has worked in the business world, these guys would get in serious trouble for saying stuff like this.

Where is the line (if any), in your opinion, for sexist behavior in the poker room?
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:54 PM   #2
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Interesting post, thanks for sharing.

In general, I think sexists comments tend to indicate a softer table for me-- since I will likely be even more underestimated than normal.

Generally, I tend to fight fire with fire in these situations. Usually that makes the guys realize they're being jerks, and they start being nice (sometimes dramatically so by whispering they have a huge hand during a pot with me, and then showing the nuts after the hand).

In the first situation you brought up I might retort to the guy, "But what everyone really wants to see at this table is your ass." and laugh as I sat down. Was good of floor dealer to offer you a table change, and if this kind of stuff tilts you, then it is def the right choice. And I do respect your decision to not put up with it.

As for the second situation, of course I understand that rape is not something to joke about, but, instead I would have responded, "But that's not what happened, was it?" with a "you were just pwned" smile. I certainly think your reaction was reasonable, though, but of course keep in mind that you will totally break rapport with the table of jerks when you respond like that.

I don't really think I can change these people's mindset from playing one session with them, so instead I try to let them know they can't walk all over me and I ship the monies at the same time. As long as I have a solid edge at the table, I feel like I have the last laugh, regardless of what they're saying.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:09 PM   #3
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Great reply, hotjenny. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Hopefully I can develop a better sense of humor about this stuff.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:25 PM   #4
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I dont necessarily think it's about developing a sense of humour, it's exactly how you respond, like Jenny said.

I don't tend to comment much in this forum, as I'm aware that what I think is banter, is pretty offensive to most, but, I'm in the Forces - if you cant take the joke, you shouldn't have joined. Lots and lots of things I say are very close to the line, but I tend to watch my audience.

For instance, I probably wouldnt act as cool and as calm as Jenny...my responses would have been something like:

Situation 1. Show you my ass? If you can kick my ass at poker...sure..if I kick yours, wanna show everyone your teeny tiny winky ****?

Situation 2: You wish honey, sadly, never gonna happen.


Again, I agree neither are to joke about and I have no wish to offend, just the way I play it. Notwithstanding that though, I appreciate how you handled it and see nothing wrong with either of them. You're right though, it can get tiresome.

AMDB9

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Old 03-13-2012, 08:45 PM   #5
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I agree, its about not developing a sense of humor. Those comments were wildly inappropriate. I don't mind if another guy says he's gonna rape me, but to say that to a woman is completely uncalled for. Sadly, in poker these types of characters appear fairly frequently. In an ideal world, he would be taken outside with baseball bat. For now, there's not much we can do except take solace in the fact that he's a sad pathetic loser who probably lives out a bitter, lonely existence.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:39 PM   #6
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

This is so situation dependent.

I'm incredibly hard to insult, but tone of voice, my mood that day, the vibe I'm getting from the table, all of that could come into play. I'd say most of the time I'm going to say something sarcastic in return, but if at any time something like this makes you uncomfortable, I think you did the right thing by speaking up (or taking a table change).

The rape thing is obviously just one of those completely retarded "jokes" that isn't funny at all. If most men could just wrap their heads around the fact that they know rape victims (even if they don't know that they do) and understand how even jokey threats or comments about rape can make women feel threatened, maybe this type of thing would die out.

I mean, I see it on 2p2 all the time. Does it offend me? Not really. But I am a rape surivor, and I don't think that comparing taking a bad beat at the poker tables is in any way comparable to what I and every other sexual assault victim has lived through.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if men would speak up when other men say retarded ass **** like this, it would become far less prevalent. When a woman speaks up, we're just uptight bitches with no sense of humor. If guys would just say, "Wow, really? Not funny/cool, IMO" when they heard other guys joke about how losing is like rape or how folding is gay, it would become less acceptable.

I'm not saying all men use these jokes, but the few that do continue to do so because they think it's funny/cool, and if they were instead made to feel like jerks every time they did it, maybe some of them would stop.
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:39 PM   #7
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

First, love the new avatar SGT!

Since I have had my issues online and off, I have come to realize certain male poker players have fragile egos and low self esteem and to make themselves feel better they resort to degrading women. In most cases if a man is giving me a hard time and does make sexiest remarks I will tell them EXACTLY what I think: They have fragile egos and low self esteem. In most cases they tilt and make mistakes until they go broke and leave. If I still have an issue I just call the floor or report them via support.

In most cases I really do feel sorry for those guys because I cannot imagine how miserable their lives must be that they must resort to the level they go.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:21 AM   #8
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

(Posting from a male's perspective.)

Took me a second to realize this was a female thread - I had opened up about 10 interesting threads at the same time, and lost track after posting on a few.

Imagine how the following sounds when you completely think it was a guy posting lol - "I was starting my session, got my chips and walked up to the table. The guy next to me says, "Turn around so we can see your ass." Then a couple others join in, "Yeah, turn around."

First off, apologies for what was said to you. A lot of guys do not have a filter, ESPECIALLY at a poker table. We will say things sometimes to sound cool, mouth off, bust another guy's balls, etc. It's like a big 'boys club' and we're just screwing around playing some cards. It's usually 100% in good fun, though it can get a bit rough and can cross a line or two. Throw alcohol into the mix, and it can get pretty crazy.

This is not an excuse. But, you need to know what to expect when you sit down. Sometimes you'll have a nice quiet table, other times a bunch of loud LOUD people. And everything in-between.

Generally, everyone's out to have a good time. Live poker is inherently social. Be prepared for the worst going in though - you're playing with a bunch of loud, mouthy, sometimes drunk, dirty guys. The "If the seven of diamonds comes, I totally rape you" comment was not directed literally at you - that guy has no idea about you. He was just trying to sound like a badass/cool/colorful, whatever you want to call it. Again, this is not an excuse, but you need to know what to expect at a poker table.

I think your solution was fine, take a table change if things get bad. But hotjenny's is usually a lot better - if you can fire back with a funny/sarcastic comment, it will do wonders. You'll be 'one of the boys.' Just don't make it personal, relax and try to have fun with it.

It's all in how you handle it. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:52 PM   #9
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

(a slightly different male perspective)

i'm very sympathetic to the OP for the boorish comments she received. poker must be inclusive to all genders, creeds and ethnicities. female players as much as any group, should be better represented in the game. obviously this BS is a major deterrent. in saying this however, I don't believe that more rules are the answer to this serious problem. this represents a more general cultural problem in our country, to which the testosterone-juiced poker table simply serves as a large window. this problem is very wide in scope, and includes the ever dumbing-down of our culture, the lessening of civility/respect for fellow man, and increasing selfish behaviors. there is a major element of many modern men that is less manly than from times past, and thus like a child, less accountable. some may say the guy from your 1st example is just acting like a man, to the contrary is acting like a pure punk.

the question of accountability, brings me to the main impetus for my post. if i had witnessed the remarks from the clown in the 1st example, ultimately one of us wouldn't be at the table for long. someone at the table needs to call this man out for what he is, a disrespectful lowlife. these behaviors persist because they are accepted or condoned. guys are often timid in this regard, but I can say from experience with this, that if I speak it can cause a cascade of support. and ultimately, just maybe this clown will think twice the next time.

the rape comment is equally heinous, tho the fool who uttered likely had less ill intent. granted clowns like the ass guy might think they are being flattering from wherever they come from. but the rape comment reflects the childishness I alluded to before. this guy shows amazingly weak social awareness and/or care. the colloquialism rolled off his tounge, as if he was playing xbox with his boys in the frat house. again, i'd glare at him from across the table, and say, "really man?? did you just say (... I'd totally rape you) to a women you don't know?!?"

i've been living in vegas playing pro live poker for almost 6 years. so of course i've taken opportunities to speak up and address such misogynistic behaviors, an well as the more general mistreatment and angling of fellow opponents. though this topic does draw my ire, i'm glad to say that at least for now, that this type of prick is much more the exception than the rule. in fact i can't recall someone as out of line as the guy from the 1st story. the more i think about it, the most common victim of this type of talk is of course the female dealer. many guys (wrongly) believe that she falls into some type of grey area just because she is getting paid. in a general sense the dealer should be as removed from the table's discussion as much as possible. an entirely impartial almost robotic officiator of the game. but of course they are still human. so i wonder when dudes tell gross in front of them, would they be happy if their mother or sister was dealing the game? although i don't think guys should generally censor themselves necessarily just because a woman is in the box, but how hard is it to dispense with the dirty stuff for a down?

anyways, i'm sorry again OP that you had to deal with this stuff. please have faith that you ran particularly bad, in being the recipient of some particularly boorish comments. I've played in rooms all over the country, so I am aware that this type of stuff can vary in magnitude by locale or region. hopefully yer home casino(s) isn't especially bad.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:21 AM   #10
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferVance View Post
(a slightly different male perspective)

please have faith that you ran particularly bad, in being the recipient of some particularly boorish comments.
Great analogy, puts things in perspective.

I really like this and it's so nice to hear all the comments. I'm glad there are well-spoken ladies out there and some men who are willing to speak up (in a good way) at the table.

Turned off chat and played on the internet today. Back to casino tomorrow.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:32 AM   #11
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by Jack&MarkGetBusy! View Post
I don't mind if another guy says he's gonna rape me, but to say that to a woman is completely uncalled for. Sadly, in poker these types of characters appear fairly frequently. In an ideal world, he would be taken outside with baseball bat. For now, there's not much we can do except take solace in the fact that he's a sad pathetic loser who probably lives out a bitter, lonely existence.
Did you consider that "it's okay if he makes jokes about raping me" is part of the reason why he also considers it okay to also make an equal joke with an equal lack of seriousness about a woman at the table? Not everyone is capable of the moral gymnastics needed to make it go from "okay" to "un-okay, ideally should be beaten with a baseball bat in a jurisdiction outside the law" just by changing the gender of the target.

I'm not trying to drag this into a discussion about double standards (even Napoleon never waged so unwinnable a war in so inhospitable an environment) but the facts are the facts; if you want it to be widely considered to be "un-okay" to joke about rape, you should realize you're hurting more than you're helping with your policy. Maybe you're okay with it, but the guy next to you may have been molested or raped as a child, or may have gotten drunk and had a woman take advantage of him. Maybe he's not okay with it. And maybe if you take a stand when the clown across the table jokes about raping the guy next to you, maybe said clown won't ever GET to the point where he jokes about raping the woman at the table.

Last edited by Moose; 03-16-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:53 AM   #12
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Good point. Apologies if that sounded abrasive / insensitive to anyone reading.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:50 PM   #13
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

hmmmmmm, either this happens a lot or i was at that table when it happened.

I knew it was inappropriate at the time, however, knowing the culprit, I wasn't as offended as I should have been. What bothered me more about the situation was a couple of guys who spoke out and apologized to you and then whenever a new dealer or player came to the table they would tell them (loud enough for you to hear at the next table) about this really funny thing that happened.

Next time I hear a verbal assault on a lady at the poker table, I will be quicker to put a stop to it.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:52 AM   #14
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Just to put out some good news, I played poker yesterday, and didn't hear anything even close to inappropriate. Unless you count the time I opened my big fat mouth on the river about a hand I wasn't even in. It probably didn't influence the action, but it was inappropriate for me to comment on the board when one of the players hadn't flipped up his cards yet.

My point being, I think stuff like this is the exception, not the rule. It does happen, but if you find it happens A LOT, you need to find a different poker room, because it's probably an environment of tolerance at that place that allows *******s to flourish. Most guys are cool, and most rooms will take some kind of action if you're experiencing some type of harassment on a regular basis.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:00 PM   #15
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Both comments were utterly rude (I'm a guy btw). You need to perfect your "that was too stupid to waste my time with a response" look.

I also find it very hard to believe someone would actually say that to a lady they had no prior history with. Have you talked about your ass with these people before?
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:35 PM   #16
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

The first one is a lot worse and completely out of line.
The rape comment is, I agree with ferVance an ill considered colloquialism which he has spewed out without thinking/while angry. The word rape is often synonymous with 'beat' or 'be victorious over' or 'outsmart' among certain groups of people, summed up well with 'frat boys'.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:14 PM   #17
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I'm a guy and I'm fairly rude and both of those comments seem way out of line.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:38 AM   #18
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ View Post
This is so situation dependent.

I'm incredibly hard to insult, but tone of voice, my mood that day, the vibe I'm getting from the table, all of that could come into play. I'd say most of the time I'm going to say something sarcastic in return, but if at any time something like this makes you uncomfortable, I think you did the right thing by speaking up (or taking a table change).

The rape thing is obviously just one of those completely retarded "jokes" that isn't funny at all. If most men could just wrap their heads around the fact that they know rape victims (even if they don't know that they do) and understand how even jokey threats or comments about rape can make women feel threatened, maybe this type of thing would die out.

I mean, I see it on 2p2 all the time. Does it offend me? Not really. But I am a rape surivor, and I don't think that comparing taking a bad beat at the poker tables is in any way comparable to what I and every other sexual assault victim has lived through.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if men would speak up when other men say retarded ass **** like this, it would become far less prevalent. When a woman speaks up, we're just uptight bitches with no sense of humor. If guys would just say, "Wow, really? Not funny/cool, IMO" when they heard other guys joke about how losing is like rape or how folding is gay, it would become less acceptable.

I'm not saying all men use these jokes, but the few that do continue to do so because they think it's funny/cool, and if they were instead made to feel like jerks every time they did it, maybe some of them would stop.
I see the point you're trying to make but throwing "retarded" as an adjective is equally as bad as saying "rape" to someone. At some point, every person will offend someone (indirectly or unintentionally) by using a word that hits their sensitive spot. People should stop taking things this literally. Just chill out and have fun just like other posters have responded itt - a cute/sarcastic remark from a woman can put any man (applies even more to fish) at your command!

Everyone needs to chill out and realize that poker is a social, emotional game where people can spazz out random stuff from time to time. Just entertain and be entertained
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:26 AM   #19
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Clearly those comments are way out of line. They aren't funny either, they're belittling and disrespectful.

That being said, as a poker player I would welcome players like this to the table if I was a girl. They're obviously not focused at all on the game, and are possibly drunk too, so you can outplay them easily.

It is easier said than done, but don't take it personally when guys act like this toward you. Lots of guys are complete *******s, and nothing will change that. Also, I would advise you not to bother getting into an argument with guys like this, you're just giving them what they want, which is attention. All you're doing is motivating them to continue picking on you. So be the bigger person by ignoring them and focusing on poker, and see how they like it when you felt them =)
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:47 PM   #20
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Actually I'm surprised any casino would allow this kind of behaviour. It's pityful seeing grown men with the manner and intellect of infants. None of the described behaviour should be tolerated in a casino (or anywhere else for that matter). And being tilted/angry is not an excuse for threatening to rape someone, it's actually a borderline crime the way he supposedly said it. I'm quite cocky myself and can enjoy sexist jokes but only in a way that it's obvious that they do not really express my views or actually offends someone. Though behaviour like this is just a sign of very limited intellect and all you can really do is pity them and take their money
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:44 PM   #21
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysfan55 View Post
Clearly those comments are way out of line. They aren't funny either, they're belittling and disrespectful.

That being said, as a poker player I would welcome players like this to the table if I was a girl. They're obviously not focused at all on the game, and are possibly drunk too, so you can outplay them easily.

It is easier said than done, but don't take it personally whenPEOPLE act like this toward you. Lots of PEOPLE are complete *******s, and nothing will change that. Also, I would advise you not to bother getting into an argument with PEOPLE like this, you're just giving them what they want, which is attention. All you're doing is motivating them to continue picking on you. So be the bigger person by ignoring them and focusing on poker, and see how they like it when you felt them =)
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:53 AM   #22
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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hmmmmmm, either this happens a lot or i was at that table when it happened.

I knew it was inappropriate at the time, however, knowing the culprit, I wasn't as offended as I should have been. What bothered me more about the situation was a couple of guys who spoke out and apologized to you and then whenever a new dealer or player came to the table they would tell them (loud enough for you to hear at the next table) about this really funny thing that happened.

Next time I hear a verbal assault on a lady at the poker table, I will be quicker to put a stop to it.
Yes, please do.

Sigh. Yes, this was in Calgary. And I did hear the intentional retelling of the story, which was annoying but not terrible. Then I got, "You have a reputation already in here for being difficult" one of the next times I came in. And this from a dealer.

It was the first time interacting with that guy who told me to show my ass. As my sessions went on and I played with him, I understood - not condoned - but understood his context better. More stupid and playful than malicious. And he's a donator so . . .

Honestly, that was a brutal room for me as woman. Only worse experiences so far have been in Vegas, where I do expect large amounts of dumbass stuff to happen.

I thought Canadians were supposed to be nice! I will count you as one of the good ones.
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:24 PM   #23
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I've begun playing alot more poker and have found that this type of behavior is more prevalant among the drunks and younger players. It amuses me since I'm married that some guys will try lines just to see where you are on the dating scene.

While these comments can seem harsh, I try to just brush them off or say something sarcastic in reply. Most guys can't take their own medicine and this approach will liven up the table at times. If there are other women present, I will try to gauge how they may be feeling. When someone does cross the line, extreme profanity or sexual innunendo, I will get the dealer involved.

Reality is that we still operate in a predominantly male dominated profession. Women poker players are on the rise, however, being the minority at most tables is the norm. I'm not one to take the "locker room jokes" personally and realize that when a group of guys are together, they tend to joke around alot, and some will even apologize based on your reaction to their comments.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:36 AM   #24
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

So tonight was up there as bad as it got for me on the table. I had 3 new players I never played with before call me the C word several ties during the session as well as 2 men talk about my hand WHILE MY HAND WAS IN PLAY! I went on tilt losing $150. I am at a point where I am going to give up online poker because of this BS. I would block chat all together but with the problems of people talking about my hands I can't. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:08 AM   #25
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Geez that's horrible. I'm thinking the only feasible alternative (since Merge doesn't seem to care about all this f'ed up chat) is to start another screen name on a different skin.
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